Help please with tip up

[Drb1643]

Hi All, I was cleaning out my grandfather’s house and came across this pistol. I’m hoping to get some information as to what exactly it is and an approximate value. It is not for sale. I’m just trying to get his estate ironed out.
Thank you very much for any comments and information.
Tom

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

I'm no expert, but it looks like a model 1 second issue. That would fit with the serial number. I'll let the experts chime in with the value in that condition, but I'd guess you could get $300-$400 for it. I don't know how the engraving affects the value.

 

[BMur]

engraving

Welcome to the forum,
That's a nice gun. You have to check to see if the assembly numbers match. That would be under the right grip on the frame, face of cylinder and back of barrel. They must match before an honest appraisal can be established. Also, does the action work well?

As far as the engraving? That is a personalized type engraving that could have been performed at any time in the past. It looks nice but basically impossible to date. It's not New York style nor is it a factory engraving. It would be a contract engraving to personalize the gun for the owner. I have some antiques that were engraved 40 years after they were manufactured. Signed by a known engraver. So, without closer examination it's difficult to date. In my opinion it is a very old engraving as seen from the toe and heel of the butt? You can see where the pattern is worn off. That takes a while to happen.

It's a lot of fun evaluating engraved guns. The quality of the engraving has a lot to do with value. This being partial coverage and not full coverage and having the very basic stitching type boarder presents an average appearance.

Without more information on who the engraver was the value if all matching and fully functional would be between $750-$900 in my opinion. That's before taxes and fees. If a bidding war for it started? Who knows....The market is nuts right now.


Murph

 

[Drb1643]

Thank you very much Murph and DeplorabusUnum, I sincerely appreciate your quick responses. I’ll have to check if it’s matching but it is fully functional.
Tom

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. First off, you have a Civil War era Model 1, 2nd Issue revolver. Made 1860 to 1868, in serial number range 11,672 - 126,361. Yours likely would have shipped in late 1864 to early 1865. It is often suggested that many, if not most, were privately purchased by Union soldiers and carried during the War. Sales quickly dropped off after the War ended. It is very possible that those initials are that of a Union Civil War soldier, maybe an officer. Too bad that history is lost. Check the inside of the stocks for a scribed name and check the right panel for a serial number?

The brass frame on almost all 2nd Issues were silver plated, resulting in the black oxidation you see on your revolver. Please do not clean it, while it would be very shiny silver, it is much preferred with the patina intact. How is the bore and chambers? Is the hinge tight or loose? If good bore and tight hinge, $500 would be easily obtained at a quality auction house.

This gun shot black powder 22 Shorts with fulminate of Mercury priming compound, which was a very weak load, but very corrosive, so many of these guns have no rifling left. I have shot all that I owned over the years with only CCI CB Caps or CB Shorts. Good rounds in tip-up S&Ws, but not very accurate and not what you would want to do on a regular basis. Any broken parts are all but impossible to find today.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

Welcome to the Forum. First off, you have a Civil War era Model 1, 2nd Issue revolver. Made 1860 to 1868, in serial number range 11,672 - 126,361. Yours likely would have shipped in late 1864 to early 1865. It is often suggested that many, if not most, were privately purchased by Union soldiers and carried during the War. Sales quickly dropped off after the War ended. It is very possible that those initials are that of a Union Civil War soldier, maybe an officer. Too bad that history is lost. Check the inside of the stocks for a scribed name and check the right panel for a serial number?

The brass frame on almost all 2nd Issues were silver plated, resulting in the black oxidation you see on your revolver. Please do not clean it, while it would be very shiny silver, it is much preferred with the patina intact. How is the bore and chambers? Is the hinge tight or loose? If good bore and tight hinge, $500 would be easily obtained at a quality auction house.

This gun shot black powder 22 Shorts with fulminate of Mercury priming compound, which was a very weak load, but very corrosive, so many of these guns have no rifling left. I have shot all that I owned over the years with only CCI CB Caps or CB Shorts. Good rounds in tip-up S&Ws, but not very accurate and not what you would want to do on a regular basis. Any broken parts are all but impossible to find today.

Thank you for filling in some of the blanks in terms of this model's history and function. Did not know about the oxidized silver patina on these models. Fascinating history wrapped up in this little pistol.

 

[Drb1643]

Gary, thank you also for your wisdom and expertise! Yes, it’s all matching. I’ve attached pictures of the frame, barrel and grips showing the serial number of &55. The front face of the cylinder also matches but it was impossible to get a clear picture due to the corrosion. I can see the numbers with a jewelers loop but couldn’t get a picture worth posting.
There is good rifling in the barrel and the lock up with the hammer and barrel to frame is tight.
Thanks again guys for helping me out.
Tom

 

[merl67]

All such post must include a quote from Mark Twains book Roughing It.
" I was armed to the teeth with a pitiful little Smith & Wesson's seven-shooter, which carried a ball like a homoeopathic pill, and it took the whole seven to make a dose for an adult. But I thought it was grand. It appeared to me to be a dangerous weapon. It only had one fault--you could not hit anything with it. One of our "conductors" practiced awhile on a cow with it, and as long as she stood still and behaved herself she was safe; but as soon as she went to moving about, and he got to shooting at other things, she came to grief. The Secretary had a small-sized Colt's revolver strapped around him for protection against the Indians, and to guard against accidents he carried it uncapped. Mr. George Bemis was dismally formidable. George Bemis was our fellow-traveler."

 

[glowe]

The one I like is below:

The Secretary had a small-sized Colt's revolver strapped around him for protection against the Indians, and to guard against accidents he carried it uncapped. Mr. George Bemis was dismally formidable. George Bemis was our fellow-traveler.


In my breast pocket of my vest I carried a small Smith & Wesson twenty-two caliber pistol . . . one day, as my vest happened to be open, the butt of the pistol was exposed. He saw it and asked, “What’s that?” I took the little revolver out and showed it to him. The minute he got it in his hands he just roared with laughter, and exclaimed, “Oh, look at the play toy!” Then he broke open the gun, and taking out the cylinder looked through the barrel, chuckling as he did so. Finally, handing back to me, he said, “Boy if you shoot me with dat and I find out, I will put you across my knee and spank hell outa you!”

 

[first-model]

You've already got a lot of good information about this revolver in this thread.

My serial number data for the 55,000 to 60,000 range is all over the place, with shipping dates hopping all over 1865 (and not at all in chronological order). So I'd wager that this gun went out sometime in 1865, but that's about as good of a guess as I could offer without having Roy go into the factory records.

I've seen a few Model 1's with partial coverage engraving as is the case with this gun. Oddly, they're actually rarer than full coverage guns, even though partial coverage would have been cheaper. That said, it looks like decent work that was probably done by a jeweler / engraver that was local to wherever the gun was sold at retail. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it was New York engraved, but I'd need to look at it under my stereoscope to give a more qualified opinion.

In terms of the gun's value: as-is, I'd wager a price of $600 to $750. I have several full-coverage New York engraved Model 1's (one is almost certainly out of Nimschke's shop; the other was either another shop working in Nimschke's style, or a more junior apprentice under Nimschke), and those guns would trend towards about a thousand dollars each right now. It's actually the condition of the rest of the gun that factors in here; I see visible rust on the hammer, and there's not a lot of the original bluing left. Without the engraving this would be a $250 gun, but with the engraving it's worth somewhat more.

What state are you located in? If you're anywhere in the vicinity of Louisiana, I'd love to see this gun sometime and look at the engraving up close. It's neat.

Mike

 

[Drb1643]

Thanks Mike for your information and help. Unfortunately I’m in NJ. I know the Peoples Republic ��. I’m just trying to figure out a value as I’d like to keep it but it’s part of the estate and I have to purchase it from the rest of the family vultures!
Thanks again buddy
Tom

 

[BMur]

Vultures

I say low ball the Vultures!

There are plenty of my relatives just waiting for me to kick the bucket....I' plan on outlasting them all!


Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

Murph, quite simple, dont go!

 

[first-model]

Thanks Mike for your information and help. Unfortunately I’m in NJ. I know the Peoples Republic ��. I’m just trying to figure out a value as I’d like to keep it but it’s part of the estate and I have to purchase it from the rest of the family vultures!
Thanks again buddy
Tom

Model 1's are the core of my collection, and I track their sales pretty closely.

If I had to put a single number for this gun on a probate inventory, I'd probably put $600. Since the gun is engraved, it will be worth more than just a plain garden-variety Model 1 (which in this condition, would probably be worth $250 to $300). But it's partial coverage engraving and probably wasn't done by one of the major houses (Nimschke, Young, etc.), so its value would probably be somewhere in the middle. At $600 I don't think anyone could accuse you of low-balling the estimate ... and you're also not into the territory of a full coverage gun, which would trend more towards four figures.

Mike

 

[Drb1643]

Thank you very much Mike. 600 is what I’ll offer.
I sincerely appreciate all the help and information from the members here on this forum.
Tom

 

[mrcvs]

Folks/heirs get funny when money and possessions are involved. $600 sounds a bit too contrived. I would start at $500, a nice round figure, half of a thousand, an increase in $50 increments to $750, if necessary.

 

[glowe]

There are two different numbers involved here. First, it was clear that you may be struggling with other heirs in order to obtain this gun. My estimate of $500 was aimed as a fair price, but not the top of the mark to save you some money. You do not want a high auction value for your purposes and so high valuation is against your best interest. The engraving is not proven to be factory, so should be considered New York style which was done outside the factory. Without the engraving, you will find guns selling out there for under $400 and non-factory engraved guns will not command that much more money.

I would bow out of this debate on the Forum and go out to Gunbroker and do a search of recently sold Model 1, 2nd Issue revolvers, comparing condition to come up with actual selling prices, which is not the same a valuation.

You can sign in or sign-up to gain access to the sold items in Gunbroker. Once signed in, go to "Advanced" by the search box. There will be two tabs, click on the Completed Auctions. Enter Wesson Model 1, 2nd in the search box and you will find 8 that have sold in the last 30 days, one of them is mine that sold for $265 in full working order. When you find them, make sure that you use the examples that have bids listed. If you cannot make this work, send me a private message and I can send you those 8 guns. Also, check out this entry with item number: 925876192. It is below and it DID NOT sell for their asking price of $399.

 

[merl67]

Gary's advice is sound, and exactly what I do when considering a purchase, or in the rare instance I sell one. Not a perfect system, but close enough for me.

 

[mrcvs]

There are two different numbers involved here. First, it was clear that you may be struggling with other heirs in order to obtain this gun. My estimate of $500 was aimed as a fair price, but not the top of the mark to save you some money. You do not want a high auction value for your purposes and so high valuation is against your best interest. The engraving is not proven to be factory, so should be considered New York style which was done outside the factory. Without the engraving, you will find guns selling out there for under $400 and non-factory engraved guns will not command that much more money.

I would bow out of this debate on the Forum and go out to Gunbroker and do a search of recently sold Model 1, 2nd Issue revolvers, comparing condition to come up with actual selling prices, which is not the same a valuation.

You can sign in or sign-up to gain access to the sold items in Gunbroker. Once signed in, go to "Advanced" by the search box. There will be two tabs, click on the Completed Auctions. Enter Wesson Model 1, 2nd in the search box and you will find 8 that have sold in the last 30 days, one of them is mine that sold for $265 in full working order. When you find them, make sure that you use the examples that have bids listed. If you cannot make this work, send me a private message and I can send you those 8 guns. Also, check out this entry with item number: 925876192. It is below and it DID NOT sell for their asking price of $399.

I agree! It’s a $250 revolver without the engraving, you can double that only because of the engraving.

 

[BMur]

Market trend

I agree with the above evaluation. However the “Vultures” should understand that the market now reflects a down trend.
The engraving is very interesting to me but as stated, a in hand close inspection could go either way. Low estimate is what the gun should be appraised at.

Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

I still admire these pistols as mechanical art. The absolute union of brass,
steel, a little silver and rosewood. Form and function met. It was the first gun I ever bought at the Old Armory Show in Balto. as a kid with my Dad. My lord, Im walking down memory lane and getting all teary eyed.

 

[Drb1643]

Great ideas, thanks again guys for all your input. I really appreciate it!
Tom