help with proper holster for 1899

[xsexcess]

First, I have (and have studied) Red's book Holstory and have ordered (haven't received) Packing Iron.

I'm trying to pair an appropriate holster for the 1899 I've previously shown on the hand ejector forum (photo included here).

It has a lot of patina, was certainly no safe queen. I was told it was a law enforcement officer's piece in Wichita Falls TX.

Looking at old photos of Wichita Falls in the late horse and buggy days, it was prosperous. Had the railroad, oil, agriculture and cattle industries going for it, so it would have been a mix of 'newfangled city' with 'dusty cowtown'. Primarily pre-automobile of course.

So my quest is to find a quality holster for it that would have been appropriate for it's first decade or so of service.

Holstory is a super great book that I enjoy learning from. It's early pages focus more on the transition from 'scout' field carry rigs to in-town designs pioneered by the Brill shop for the rangers. If a Brillalike ranger inspired rig seemed correct, I'd gravitate that direction. But that was 3 decades later. Perhaps Packin Iron will cover this period better when I receive my copy.

But I'm thinking the 1899 was a bit long in the tooth by the time the Brills came along. The King Ranch saddle shop designs probably existed at that time, but the King Ranch is very far away from Wichita Falls. Indian Territory (OK) and Ft Worth (Wolf and Klar) were much closer and more likely to have been a place to source gunleather.

I put the question to the experts / historians here; what design would be appropriate for a western growing-city officer to carry his new-fangled 38 hand ejector? And where can I find such an animal?

I've looked and looked on the usual sites on the web. Yes there are some possibles out there. For some reason, (primarily they seem too 'new' a design to me) I'm not attracted to the Heiser sewn-on strap designs that may be period correct but since they're still made by many companies just don't have that 'vintage' look to them. Single, double and triple integral-loop designs typical for a SAA might be the thing.

It's a 5" bbl.

Please help with your thoughts.....

 

[Kansasgunner]

How about A.L. Furstnow from Montana?This one fits 5” M&P. Mail order was a thing back then.

 

[rednichols]

OP your revolver is more of a 'citizen's revolver' than say, a Colt SA. Look again at Holstory, it is organized in roughly date sequence, earliest to latest designs, with Brill being the first 'engineered' holster.

By 1900 the West was closed and open carry of guns was discouraged if not prohibited. Holsters were not nearly as common as you might think. It was the gentrification of cities that pushed pistols to be hidden away in more sophisticated holsters, then. And this was accelerated by the intro of the automobile at the beginning of that century, so saddlers were forced over into gunleather to take up the slack in demand.

What this means is one cannot literally find a vintage holster for civilians made by any but a small handful of saddlers; demand hadn't set in yet.

Push on to 1905 and the Brill and the Heiser products had just appeared; Myres not until 1930 and Lawrence not until nearly 1940.

But you're asking about styles, not brands, circa 1900. All the images are labeled by maker, and the only makers of the 19th century. While famous marques such as Furstnow and Menea are well into the 20th century.

I'm intentionally being quite literal about 1899, because others can be general in their advice but steer you well off track. Civilian holsters in 1899? Damned rare and expensive .

To the list I'll add these discouraging words: not El Paso Saddlery, either, 1890 to 1902: I'm only aware of 2 or 3 that have survived, suggesting that they really did make only saddles. Common enough are their successor's, Shelton-Payne Arms; but post 1900.

P.S. Packing Iron is a beauty to behold but one of its editors is on record stating it was a photo exercise and is not a history book. You will not find the Brill in it! And the author's civilian chapter is literally only 20th century product once he gets past the Slim Jim period.

 

[xsexcess]

Thank you for the replies. I had never heard of Furstnow, or the others Red mentioned. The single loop integral 'cuff' was kinda what I had in my mind. The explanation of how uncommon holsters of that era are today makes sense. You see quite a few Civil War era holsters offered, mostly in bad shape. But there were tens of thousands of those made. Oddly enough, I do have a slimjim (made for a Single Six) and had noted that it fits the K frame pretty well.

 

[turnerriver]

I learned long ago not to argue with Red. He has knowledge, experience and well thought out practical theories, all I’ve ever had are holsters. The following are examples I’ve owned and sold as they were too early to fit my stated interest in 20th Century holsters up to about the 1970’s. A couple of these are actual late 1800’s early 1900’s examples and some are later but period accurate. Red of course is correct about the lessening frequency of open carry of firearms but your interest is in the exception to that-law enforcement carry. The single or double loop design was a western standard in both the 19th and 20th Century.
Keep searching on internet auction sites, I’ll take a look in the stacks and see if I have something suitable. You should be able to find something that meets your requirements.

Regards,

 

[rednichols]

In considering the era of a vintage holster, always look to the stitching. If it's machine stitched on a humble Singer, around the perimeter of the fender for example, it c/b very late 19th century -- or even mid 20th! If it is stitched on a harness machine with a lockstitch, it can't be 19th century and is early 20th. If it is machine stitched with a chain stitch, then it can be even mid-19th and early 20th but not later. Wyeth used all the stitches during its era that was late 19th to mid 20th.

Lacing? You're on your own . No welt inside the main seam? Never 19th century. Etc. Lots of clues were left for us. The oldest Heiser's I've ever seen, for example, are 20th century not 19th. Like Wyeth they used all the forms of closing the main seam when they skittered off in the direction of gunleather after the death of the senior Heiser in 1904/5.

Style wise, no one who views your collection will know the difference if you choose what Heiser called the Mexican Loop, which basically is any holster with the loops formed from the fender behind the holster. You tell 'em it's 1899 and they won't know the diff! But that is the second earliest maker's mark for Heiser that we know of.

 

[xsexcess]

Thank you Red, Turner, all. I will continue to look for a self-loop holster of the right length and patina. Especially the 'no one else will know' comment. So often our subject matter experts get so focused they lose touch with practicality for us common collectors. That comment shows you're both 'the' expert and also grounded. Kudos.

 

[murphydog]

Just as an interested thread observer, what about a surplus era military holster? An 1899 would have fit any of the leather gear meant for the Colt D.A. .38 series of the time.

 

[xsexcess]

I did think about that. It would certainly fit and be contemporary. But holsters wouldn't be surplused from military inventory for quite some time after the 1899 was sold new.

I've been looking at the (mostly SAA) fancy holsters I have on hand applying Red's thoughts on (thin thread small stitches often thin leather) 'Singer' and the like sewing machine stitches ('Catalog' holsters), thick thread purpose-made leather sewing machine stitches and hand sewn saddle stitches. I never thought to look before / didn't know how to distinguish the differences. A tutorial on the stitch type differences might make a great reference thread!

 

[xsexcess]

Schoellkopf holster history?

In my holster quest, I've set my search pretty broad. Schoellkopf, the Dallas TX saddlemaker has popped up. I know just a touch about their history and am wondering if anyone can fill in some details.

I know:

They were founded in Dallas in the late 1860s, and were the largest saddle makers in the world as late as the 1920s.

There is a 1925 catalog on-line I'm trying to download (fail so far) that has a page or two of holsters. This being prior to the Brauer patent on the snap closure front strap what's in the 1925 catalog may be of an earlier design. But I have not seen any Schoellkopf holsters that are not of the Brauer patent design.

Some of the Schoellkopf holsters I see have a saddle-sized maker mark on the backside. Much larger than you normally see on a holster. These say 'Buddy Schoellkopf' on them. These seem to have plain brass snap covers on them.

Others have a custom brass snap cover that says Schoellkopf and the 'Giant' branding they used on their saddles.

I am pretty sure this old (still live there, famous) Dallas family morphed this brand into the 'Black Sheep' line of sporting goods some time in the fifties, producing hunting clothes/gun cases/holsters into the 80s?

So my questions are primarily, what kind of holsters did they make prior to the 1928 Brauer patent expiring in 1948? What years did they produce the 'plain snap' and 'giant snap' versions? When did they switch to 'black sheep' snap covers?

I checked the index in Holstory and didn't find anything on Schoellkopf, Giant, Dallas, or Black Sheep.

 

[Papa Lee]

G.H. Schoellkopf Company

The G.H. Schoellkopf Company was founded in Dallas, Texas, in 1869. His son, J. Fred Schoellkopf became VP around the same time that they published their first saddlery catalog in 1887 and it is considered one of the earliest known Texas saddle, tack and hardware catalogs. They used the White Elephant Brand trademark until the early 1900s when they adopted the “Famous Jumbo Brand”. The shop flourished and by the 1920s their catalog had expanded to over 350 pages with a diversified array of cowboy equipment. The company changed with the times and trends and even manufactured silver saddles when the demand of parade riders called for them in the late 1940s and 1950s. They made saddles and holsters into the 1970's. Most Schoellkopf holsters I have handled are marked "Jumbo".

 

[xsexcess]

page from 1925 Schoellkopf catalog (scabbards)

I was able to buy / download the 1925 catalog. Having 'security token' issues uploading the (only) page for 'scabbards' in the catalog. Maybe this will help some ID unmarked holsters.

(separate) I found a listing for an early BP SAA with an 'SK' logo stamped on it's accompanying holster. Hesitant to post because it is an active for sale listing. I wonder if 'SK' is ShollenKopf. Based on the catalog images we can see Schollenkopf was not (yet) knocking off the Brauer bros snap strap patent in 1925 . Most of the Schollenkopf holsters I see listed for sale are the Brauer design. I'll try again to post the catalog page.

 

[xsexcess]

Schoellkopf catalog scabbards 1925

I couldn't pull out just one page from the catalog PDF, had to print the page and scan it. Resolution is not as good as the PDF. But, you can get the idea of what they offered in the mid-twenties.

 

[xsexcess]

It may be hard to read, but the fine print at the bottom of the page says the patterns are 'relief stamped' (I assume, not carved). Probably sewing machine chain stitched too - not 'saddle stitched'. Would be fun to find one with the 'giant' markings that matches one of the patterns in the catalog and discuss the details of construction. Clearly, not the fine workmanship of Brillalikes used by professional LE of the day.

 

[Papa Lee]

Shelton-Payne Arms. Co. El Paso, Tex. Holster

Did someone mention Shelton-Payne? This one is a pretty standard configuration for an early 5" N frame S&W HD 38/44.

 

[xsexcess]

That's a handsome holster in great shape Lee. I haven't heard of SP from El Paso. Red gives extensive coverage of course of Meyer as one of the original TX Ranger holster suppliers in the Brill style from El Paso.

I suppose not every LE officer got 'Ranger pay' and could afford the best. And how were they supposed to know 'the best' was even available? There was no internet. The feed store might have a copy of the latest Schoellkopf catalog. Everyone had a Sears, or Monkey Wards catalog (where most of the cheap surviving holsters are likely to have come from). The NRA magazine assumed it's recognizable format in the 1920s (Maj. Gen. Julian Hatcher, Townsend Whelen, Charles Askins, Jr. and others were authors) so magazine ads might have been an info source (speculating). Ironic that we 10 decades later have better info (this forum, books) on which makers produced fine quality holsters than men did when the items were actually being produced.

 

[xsexcess]

the Universe sometimes provides...

Been working the holster search for several days now. Probably wrong on some levels, but right on others.....three days ago I spotted a holster for sale 175 miles down the road in Austin from an estate sale guy on believe it or not Etsy. The price was good, and I had no idea what it would fit but took a chance on it because it was made by one of the shops Red identifies as TX Ranger suppliers; SA Wade in Rosenberg TX. It arrived today. And....amazingly it fits my 5" model 1899!

 

[rednichols]

That's a handsome holster in great shape Lee. I haven't heard of SP from El Paso. Red gives extensive coverage of course of Meyer as one of the original TX Ranger holster suppliers in the Brill style from El Paso.

I suppose not every LE officer got 'Ranger pay' and could afford the best. And how were they supposed to know 'the best' was even available? There was no internet. The feed store might have a copy of the latest Schoellkopf catalog. Everyone had a Sears, or Monkey Wards catalog (where most of the cheap surviving holsters are likely to have come from). The NRA magazine assumed it's recognizable format in the 1920s (Maj. Gen. Julian Hatcher, Townsend Whelen, Charles Askins, Jr. and others were authors) so magazine ads might have been an info source (speculating). Ironic that we 10 decades later have better info (this forum, books) on which makers produced fine quality holsters than men did when the items were actually being produced.

Nice find on the Wade. Be aware that what you're calling 'Ranger Pay' was very poor!

"Payroll of Captain John R. Hughes, Company A, Ranger Force. State of Texas for Aug 1914. Monthly pay for Capt. ($100)(so 5 oz/gold/mo) his Sgt ($50) and 9 privates ($40) at Ysleta (shy of a dozen men)

And I've an article about Hughes complaining their pay needed to be higher if they were going to attract men. These chaps didn't stay long on the Ranger Force et al nor did they necessarily live very long, either.

Your Wade will 'fit' your revolver, ignoring that the strap closes, when you can turn the holster upside down and try to shake out the revolver. That welt inside the main seam -- just one on yours, up to 3 on a late Brill -- is meant to clamp the frame into the holster pocket.

 

[xsexcess]

well by those standards, the holster is too big then. Cause it isn't that tight....

It fits that tight on a 44HE, and a 1911, but the strap is too short.

It fits that tight on a 4 3/4 SAA...and the strap snaps, so clearly that's what it was made for. Thanks for prompting me to check it out.

 

[rednichols]

well by those standards, the holster is too big then. Cause it isn't that tight....

It fits that tight on a 44HE, and a 1911, but the strap is too short.

It fits that tight on a 4 3/4 SAA...and the strap snaps, so clearly that's what it was made for. Thanks for prompting me to check it out.

It came to this because you were judging an old, thin holster by the standards of today. By the 1960s all makers including the one I worked for, Bianchi, had forgotten the purpose of the welts and changed to a tight, wet-fit; which Brills were not formed at all. Shipped in the flat, we have pics from the Brill-maker's grandson.

A Brill is made so that the holster will actually SWELL as you insert the revolver; we're not used to that today and see it as a negative. The entire concept behind first the Brill, then the Threepersons (a Brill with the complex cuff and fender cut away) was to have retention WITHOUT a strap, which the Rangers thought suited only for retreating, literally.

The Brill is not the cowboy holster we long thought it to be. It is the precursor to the FBI holster of the 1930s and was developed to be carried high, grip forward of the front sight, thin, strapless -- a fancy version of what Jelly Bryce used from Myres. And concealed behind the hip, under a coat.