I completely agree that the vital targets would be quite difficult to hit especially under stress and with a moving target. If someone was charging me with a baseball bat or a machette I would probably be inclined to go for the legs as it would stop the threat but if someone is pointing a gun at me I personally wouldn't consider a leg shot as an option.
Hit the intruder three times without stopping him
- Thread starter ajgibb
- Start date
Strato, you bring up a good point and I always enjoy your postings.
In this one, we might need to look at it differently. If someone is pointing a gun at you, the fight has already been lost.
Do not draw on one that has a gun pointed at you. If you do, you just forced them to shoot you. While I agree that going for the leg against one pointing a gun at me is not an option but neither is pulling a gun. It becomes time to calmly discuss the issue. I have found that most of the time someone pulls a gun and does not shoot immediately, they are not apt to do so unless provoked into doing so.
Even hitting someone in a vital area will likely mean you are going to get shot. A person can pull a trigger out of instinct, even as they fall.
wheelgun28
Member
Something comes to mind after reading this thread. If you are in a situation who really has time to aim?
Anything I've read pretty much say that it will become a point and shoot. As best you can do is just hope to see the front sight.
Things that get overlooked, these situation happen fast, very fast, split second decision and you hope that you act to the situation and not react (training, muscle memory helps here).
Adrenalin dump, clouding thinking, muscle control causing shaking.
The thought that you will be under duress, draw and double tap some evil doer between the eyes seems like a long odds.
Am I wrong in thinking this way?
Thankfully I dont have first hand knowledge and hope never to
Anything I've read pretty much say that it will become a point and shoot. As best you can do is just hope to see the front sight.
Things that get overlooked, these situation happen fast, very fast, split second decision and you hope that you act to the situation and not react (training, muscle memory helps here).
Adrenalin dump, clouding thinking, muscle control causing shaking.
The thought that you will be under duress, draw and double tap some evil doer between the eyes seems like a long odds.
Am I wrong in thinking this way?
Thankfully I dont have first hand knowledge and hope never to
Stu Honea
Member
Good thought process here. Many,many,times,in fact more often than not the fight is actually a fight before it becomes a gunfight.
Yes,muscle memory and training plays a huge role in your skill under stress.That's why we train.
There are many 21st century trainers out there who want to laugh you off as a fool if you,in any way,advocate any kind of point or sightless shooting. Then,there are others who agree that some point shooting skills are a good thing to have in your bag.My own experiences have taught me that the latter is true.
Not only that,but look at the history of real pistol fights.
It is readily apparent that what Fairburn and Sykes,and Applegate were teaching was successful. Take a look,for example at some of the old legendary gunfighters and their methods. Mr. Bryce would be the best example of this.
I am a firm believer in using sights when it's possible,but the fact is that it is not always possible,and there's not always time. We are currently deludged with more modern weapons and the advocates for some kind of red dot sights on pistols is growing by leaps and bounds.
It's one of those things that might make you go "HMMM?"
I personally do not believe that these have any place on a defensive pistol or revolver. Many say it's the wave of the future because they are fans of some of the better known advocates of these things. I may be old,but I'm not as stupid as I look.
Just as sighted fire training is an urgent need for those who carry a handgun,so are point shooting skills,shooting from retention,and so forth and so on and blah,blah,blah.
Your survival may depend on it,and believe me,once you understand and practice the concepts,it is not that difficult.
I'm all for scopes,RDS's, and many other options on a long gun for battle,but the personal defensive sidearm needs to be simple and fast,and the user needs to be skilled with it in all these areas.Whats old is new again.
If one's interest is in developing gunfighting skills,then they should be interested in becoming a complete gunfighter.
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If my weapon wasn't already in my hand before they took aim on me you're absolutely right. The gunfight is over and after only a few seconds of reasoning if he doesn't show any sign of standing down every word I could think of would be coming out of my mouth while I'm looking for cover to hopefully create a chance to start over. If both guns are drawn any hit along with swift movement would decrease his chances of hitting you and the way I see it the fewer shots he gets off the better your chances of survival. I would much prefer not to have to shoot at anyone, even a scumbag. That's not a memory I would want etched in my brain. I totally agree that even a good hit doesn't guarantee it'll stop the perp from delivering a fatal shot. In my oppinion not dying should be the first thought followed closely be eliminating the threat. I always respect your expertise and experience and usually agree as well as see your point when I don't. The hardest thing to determine in any confrontation is the human factor as we are all unique with our own abilities and limits and that's true for the perps too. Reguardless of someone's demeaner you never know what's going on in his head. Stats are generalized and what works for the masses isn't always the right choice.
Stu Honea
Member
Strato,I certainly undrstand your thinking on this,however,the bat is a deadly weapon,also.
If an individual is charging you with a bat,your life is certainly in mortal danger and you are completely justified in shooting in defense.
Shooting for the legs(as he is running toward you) is a much more difficult target than center mass. If you miss, those missed shots will not disuade him in the least if he is already angry enough to charge you in the first place.
If you are justified in shooting,you are justified in killing.
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Stu Honea
Member
There's always the "draw against the drop" performed with movement.But... that's a topic for another thread.
Yeah I failed to mention distance. If he's coming at me with a bat from accross the parking lot I'm confident I can stop him without killing. If he's within 30 feet I'm going for center mass. If he's standing over me with a raised bat and I have my weapon out or can get it out fast enough he'll get 2 or 3 in the face. Ultimately I never want to kill anyone but will do whatever it takes to survive.
Stu Honea
Member
Yes sir,distance does certainly make the difference in the actions taken as well as the outcome.
StatesRightist
Member
This type of scenario is I have practiced point shooting consistently so that I can shoot a 4 inch sized group out to 10 yds shooting from the holster fast and in multiples. Double tap center torso, 1 in the head.
Shooting 1 every 4-5 seconds and painting a pretty picture on paper all the time is a waste of practice time in my opinion. There are guys who are bullseye/comp shooters who regularly out shoot me on paper. However, I'm not there stroke my ego, I'm there to practice things that apply to the street. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with bullseye shooting, but people do real world drills too. JMO.
labworm
US Veteran
All I have to say is, never come to Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park during a Yankee/Red Sox Game.
shooter1911
Member
Exactly, you beat me to it.
OK Hog Shooter
Member
I'm with you fellas! I don't have the training and number of rounds down range to feel comfortable with any pistol, within the confines of my home... so l'll stack the Benelli in the corner chock full of 000 buck and let the action begin... oh, l'll be dragging the mattress off the bed and crouching behind it, too!
You must remember that a mattress is concealment and not cover. In fact, there is little cover in any residential home.
HayesGreener
US Veteran
Interesting Discussion
Just stumbled across this thread-interesting discussion. The effects of gunshots on stopping attacks have been studied for many years-much of what we know about terminal ballistics comes from this research. Ideally well placed, really big bullets with high velocity that stop suddenly in the body seem to be the ticket. But it ain't over till it's over. I am absolutely convinced that a shotgun is the best close range defense weapon. But twice in my career I saw subjects shot in the chest point blank with 12 ga.police buckshot loads-hitting the heart-and the subjects dropped but still had a few seconds fight left. Subjects both DRT but not instantly. Saw a number of DRT's from a single shot from a "small" caliber, .38 and 9mm. I am also reminded of a chapter from a Medicolegal Investigation of Death textbook where a PCP freak was shot in excess of 20 times by several officers using 9mm (ball ammo) and he kept fighting. A number of those shots were fatal but none instantly-none hit what we referred to as the "Incapacitation Neutralization Zone" INZ. Some of the police training I received over the years stressed, "keep shooting till he's down" was good advice. God Bless that old warrior for going back at the crook, if there were more victims who responded accordingly those home invasions would plummet and we would eliminate a lot of the scum from the gene pool.
Just stumbled across this thread-interesting discussion. The effects of gunshots on stopping attacks have been studied for many years-much of what we know about terminal ballistics comes from this research. Ideally well placed, really big bullets with high velocity that stop suddenly in the body seem to be the ticket. But it ain't over till it's over. I am absolutely convinced that a shotgun is the best close range defense weapon. But twice in my career I saw subjects shot in the chest point blank with 12 ga.police buckshot loads-hitting the heart-and the subjects dropped but still had a few seconds fight left. Subjects both DRT but not instantly. Saw a number of DRT's from a single shot from a "small" caliber, .38 and 9mm. I am also reminded of a chapter from a Medicolegal Investigation of Death textbook where a PCP freak was shot in excess of 20 times by several officers using 9mm (ball ammo) and he kept fighting. A number of those shots were fatal but none instantly-none hit what we referred to as the "Incapacitation Neutralization Zone" INZ. Some of the police training I received over the years stressed, "keep shooting till he's down" was good advice. God Bless that old warrior for going back at the crook, if there were more victims who responded accordingly those home invasions would plummet and we would eliminate a lot of the scum from the gene pool.
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
Emmett Dalton survived being shot 23 times in Coffeyville, Kansas, October 5, 1892. He obviously didn't fall after the third hit, and I don't believe the good people of Coffeyville, Kansas, were shooting .22s at the Dalton Gang.
ECS
LedFowl
Member
Why do you suppose he kept his handguns in the bathroom?
bp231986
Member
After 3 rounds of buckshot to center mass....well lol there would be no center mass
There are no magic bullets and folks do not go down and remain a non threat the moment they are struck by a a bullet. A perfect example of this is the Miami FBI shooting where both shooters were struck multiple times, one of them with FATAL wounds and they continued to be aggressive until ultimately slain by an agent with shots from his .38 special service weapon to the head and face. Yes, many folks are struck and go down. Many do not. Keep firing until the threat is no more.
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