Hodgdon Reloading Data Center VS Hornady Reloading Handbook

I don't believe that. If you stick a bullet due to lead fowling or a bullet lodges in the barrel and you fire another the gun will blow up, even with minimum .38 spl load.


IMHO.....if you're loading .38 special with H110/W296, you deserve to blow your gun. I believe what Skip is implying is that because a proper charge of H110/W296 almost fills the case in .357, double charging is impossible.....and since a nearly full case is a safe load in any modern firearm, that it's impossible to put enough powder in a case and still seat the bullet to cause a kaboom. It does not mean you won't shoot the gun loose, it just means it won't blow up in your hand.
 
IMHO.....if you're loading .38 special with H110/W296, you deserve to blow your gun. I believe what Skip is implying is that because a proper charge of H110/W296 almost fills the case in .357, double charging is impossible.....and since a nearly full case is a safe load in any modern firearm, that it's impossible to put enough powder in a case and still seat the bullet to cause a kaboom. It does not mean you won't shoot the gun loose, it just means it won't blow up in your hand.

I never said I was reloading 38 specials. Where did you get that from? Dude, I'm loading 357 magnums.
 
I never said I was reloading 38 specials. Where did you get that from? Dude, I'm loading 357 magnums.


Dude......if you read my post thoroughly, you'll see I quoted auburn2 and was referring to his comment on loading .38s. Sorry for the confusion, Dude.
 
What are those bullets and what are your loads? That looks mean.

Those are cast from a Modern Bond mould, here at home! ;)
They are 160gr WC.

I have run these bullets from mild to wild and they perform well at all velocities.

When they hit, they hit with authority! :D
 
I don't believe that. If you stick a bullet due to lead fowling or a bullet lodges in the barrel and you fire another the gun will blow up, even with minimum .38 spl load.

Auburn,
That is exactly what I am saying in my post. Read it again, please. I address that exact point.

If your bullets exit the barrel, there is NO WAY you can blow up a 357Magnum with a full charge of H110/W296, NO WAY.


Especially a Smith. They are designed for full magnum charges. H110/W296 can give you flattened primers, sticky extraction and all of that, don't get me wrong, but your Smith 357Mag is designed to take those kinds of pressures. Now, if you give it a steady diet of those kinds or rounds OR try to shoot magnum "ish" loads in your 38spl, well, then all bets are off.

Go back and read the post, auburn. I try to put exactly what I mean and mean just what I say in every single post I post. ;)
 
gsparesa,
Your crimp looks to be very stout. If you take a close look and see the flattened part of the case in the cannelure you will see what I mean.

Now, you may need that much, you may not. One thing I will tell you though, that is exactly how I crimp my 44Mag load when I use jacketed bullets.

Are your cases going to wear out prematurely? YEP! And along with that your crimp will also, keep bullets from jumping, cause your powder to get a good start at burning and cause your loads to be much more consistent across the chronograph.

All of those things will keep you from sticking a bullet and creating a situation where you can blow up your gun! (In regards to the previous posts in order to be clear! ;) )
 
"lowegan" stated that there are two standards. One based on the older SAAMI 46K CUP (41,500 psi) standard and one based on the newer 1995 SAAMI 35,000 psi standard.

Read the old thread, " Hornady 7th Edition 357 Magnum Loads for H110", here.

"lowegan" suggested that the loading pressure data based on the CUP, like Hodgdon, is based on the older SAAMI standard. The new standard was adopted because some firearms could not handle the higher pressures.

OK, the thought that old firearms made before the currently used steel alloys were available, and calibrated eyeballs for heat treat temperature determination were replaced by calibrated instruments are somehow capable of handling more pressure than more modern devices is ......not logical, to be polite.

The piezo electric pressure system and any data changes are the result of the more sophisticated and accurate pressure information available using the new systems (The copper crusher apparently wasn't capturing peak pressures in some cases). There's also the established fact that CUP and piezo electric PSI have no consistant realtionship. X CUP is not X PSI and no conversion factors exist.

For cartridges that had safe pressure levels established with the CUP system, ammunition proved to be safe under the old system is used to calibrate the piezo electric equipment. If X CUP produces a lower PSI reading, and that seems to be the case with pistol calibers, that's the new standard. If you look at the pressures for centerfire rifle cartridges, you'll notice that the allowable pressures seem to have gone up rather than down.

BTW, the powder manufacturers usually, but not always, do their load development/pressure testing in test barrels in a universal receiver with dead minimum chambers to provide themselves a worst case scenario for high pressures. Primer condition as a pressure measurement isn't all that accurate.
 
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The piezo electric pressure system and any data changes are the result of the more sophisticated and accurate pressure information available using the new systems (The copper crusher apparently wasn't capturing peak pressures in some cases). There's also the established fact that CUP and piezo electric PSI have no consistant realtionship. X CUP is not X PSI and no conversion factors exist.

Here is something else that to be quite polite about is, well, ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant.

I have been tasked on more occasions than I can count to calibrate sophisticated electronic sensing devices. I will just simply say that to rely on them as the most accurate of measuring devices because you cannot see what is going on inside those little electronic chips is very ignorant.

It all depends on the calibrator, period. Whether it is temperature, pressure, length or what have you, a sensor's ability to accurately provide information is not "unquestionable". Personally, after 35 years of doing this kind of work, I can tell you, I would rather have something to test with that people didn't try to "guarantee" was set up correctly, as in a piece of copper that can be tested with a BHN probe and a microscope.

Not to mention, calibration techniques and standards. Where and how are these devices calibrated? Can you imagine storing a gas in a test tank at 60,000psi? What do you rely on to tell you what pressure is in that tank? An analog or dial gage? How wide is the needle? How accurate is that gage? +/- what psi or percent?

No, there is no doubt that today, heat treating is more uniform, nor that more metal is being treated because of the cost coming down (relatively) because of better methods of doing so.

I've been around this block more than once, let me tell you.

Case in point: I was working for a calibration firm. We had a client that wanted to see a certain "level" on their data collection PC because that was a "good number". The technician before me, the one that was tasked with calibrating everything at that site, made that "good number" appear over a VERY WIDE RANGE. Then, the site was handed over to me and within a week, the company I worked for was dismissed. WHY? Because I made their "good number" go away. I calibrated a "flow meter" just as it was supposed to be calibrated, in fact, all of the flow and pressure sensors were restored to their respective correct calibrations.

No more "good numbers" so to speak. And, it just isn't that hard to do simply by human error and not maliciously as in the case above.

In this instance, if I purchase a new Smith & Wesson M25 or M625 or M29 or M629 or M686 or whatever, I am going to rest assured that it will stand up to whatever data is out there. Whether it was derived via CUP methods or PSI.

That just seems to make better sense logically to me than any other conclusion.
 
Skip,

I certainly buy the concept that instruments have to be properly calibrated for the results to be valid. Perhaps I over simplified my explanation, but I have only a cursory knowledge of how copper crusher were calibrated and what they actually measure beyond some kind of pressure.

The piezo system [and the earlier Wheatstone Bridge system, when either/both are properly calibrated] do allow pressure/time graphs that provided some startling information for engineers, especially on peak pressures.
 
And to that I agree. They provide data over time. Whether it is correct or not, that is a WHOLE NUTTER story! ;)
 
Response from Hornady Manufacturing Inc.

tech [[email protected]]

"I would never load any lower than the lowest load that we publish. Some books publish a max and a lower load or let you reduce it 10%. Some powders you can reduce, but WIN 296 and H110 do not work well when reduced down too far. It sounds that Winchester lists the Top charges and you can reduce that charge 3%. all of the data we have shot in our manual is safe and you should see no issues with it but these charges that Hodgdon is publishing may be safe but these are velocity ranges that maybe aren't suited to the purpose of what you are trying to do with the bullets Thanks"
 
I don't believe that. If you stick a bullet due to lead fowling or a bullet lodges in the barrel and you fire another the gun will blow up, even with minimum .38 spl load.

I have a photograph of a fine old K-38 with 11 of 12 bullets lodged in the barrel which was returned to S&W, sectioned, photographed and sent back to the complainant (who had returned it saying that it was no good because he couldn't hit anything with it). The bullet at the muzzle had fallen out and they were from commercial .38 special, mid-range ammo. Although this event happened years ago I am still amazed that the shooter wasn't aware of the unusual recoil, noise or lack of weight change/shift or visual signature. I would think that the propellant gasses leaking out the cylinder-barrel gap would make an unmistakeably unique sound.
 
What a thread. I read a lot of it but not every post. I feel the pain of the OP. I'm just starting into reloading myself and the different recipes you can get for the same powder/same primer/same bullet is amazing and for a newbie, frustrating. I'm just taking it slow and trying to learn.
 
I'd watch out that winchester/imr/hodgdon web site.The loads are a bit on the hot side I was going to use there data for some 45-70 loads at the trapdoor level for my 74' Sharps and the suggested loads from the hodgdon site would have actualy fallen into the Ruger #1 pressure levels.Your best bet when looking for a new load is to do a compairison between the Lyman,Hornady,Sierra manuals and split the difference with an average.
 
tech [[email protected]]

"I would never load any lower than the lowest load that we publish. Some books publish a max and a lower load or let you reduce it 10%. Some powders you can reduce, but WIN 296 and H110 do not work well when reduced down too far. It sounds that Winchester lists the Top charges and you can reduce that charge 3%. all of the data we have shot in our manual is safe and you should see no issues with it but these charges that Hodgdon is publishing may be safe but these are velocity ranges that maybe aren't suited to the purpose of what you are trying to do with the bullets Thanks"

Dang, they beat me to it. I don't have Hornady No. 8, but No. 7 has a list of their bullets and their suggested velocity ranges. They have loaded their loads and tested them to make sure they will work, but stopped at the maximum velocity that their bullets perform the best at. Other sources, even though they may be using Hornady's bullets, don't give a rats hiney if the bullets perform or not, that's not the products they are trying to sell. If hornady tried H110 at those charge weights, and they didn't work, they wouldn't have included it in their manual.
 
H110 data for 357 mag

I would NOT recommend these loads . I tried them in a 6 " Python and experienced case ruptures and FLAT primers on all with case ruptures on 2 out of 6 rounds. One split the case head from primer pocket to side of hull. Most catastrophic case failures I've ever experienced in 357 Mag and I push them to max with reloading manual data looking for primers to indicate pressures reaching max.
 
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This isn't exactly on point but just FYI. I was watching that "How it is Made" tv show and they were showing the manufacturing of clone Colt SAA pistols (it was Uberti) and they mention that the barrels were tested to triple their rated pressures. I would say that's a pretty good safety margin. Seems like I remember that was how they used to test scuba tanks. They had to be retested every five years and I think they pumped in twice the rated pressure. If it didn't rupture it passed.
 
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