Hollow point, vs. Hard Ball

[sprintsuper]

I have a question for all to consider???? Should you use hard ball in self defence vs. hollow point. The military use hard ball as they do not want to kill, they want to disable the enemy, resulting in it taking more personnel to care for wounded, than the dead, that can be left on the battle field. As in a self defence situation, not want to kill or maim the perpetrator but to disable them???????????????

 

[Doug M.]

The military has its own operating needs and context, most of which has no more to do with civilian self-defense needs than chocolate cake has to do with apple pie. The point of shooting someone in our setting is to stop their actions. Whether they live or die is a tangential issue at most. The odds are that they will have to be shot a lot to stop anyway. The only good reason to use ball is if that is all that will work in your auto-pistol and you can't fix the gun or change to another that works.

 

[P&R Fan]

If you shoot somebody you want all of the bullet's energy to be deposited in the bad guy. Hardball may very well go right through, since it won't expand. Massad Ayoob has had several articles about over penetration where a bystander was injured or killed by a shot that went through the target. Many of the stories were Law Enforcement ones. Especially NYPD before they finally approved hollowpoints.
A hollowpoint does not always expand. But it's much more likely to than hardball.
Jim

 

[shouldazagged]

I carry a revolver, so bullet shape and feeding aren't issues. But I load it with +P hollowpoints. As DougM put it so well, I carry to stop the actions of an assailant as quickly and efficiently as I can to save myself or someone else from deadly harm.

I believe one reason, probably the principal reason, that the military uses ball ammunition is that it's mandated under international treaty. Dates from the days when so-called "dumdum" bullets were banned in "civilized" warfare.

 

[ikor]

There have been times all I had was hardball (both 9mm and .45) and was very glad to get it, but given well designed, tested and verified JHP I will take it any day over ball.

 

[Clovishound]

I consider it irresponsible for me to carry non expanding ammo. Besides the over penetration issue mentioned above, there is the issue of misses either ricocheting, or penetrating a wall, or other barrier.

If I were forced to carry non expanding ammo, I would rethink carrying 9mm, and opt for a slower, larger round. .45 would be the choice.

 

[Fred_Ziffel]

FMJ preferred in an automatic, HP in a revolver.

I like FMJ in an automatic [mine are .380s] precisely because of its superior penetration. I want the bullet to get through any and all barriers and put a hole in the targeted organ [heart or brain]. Barriers might be heavy clothing or an arm or a rib, or all of them at once. Using hard ball requires due diligence to not hit an innocent person down range. One of the safety rules is to know what is behind the target. I resolve to be aware of what's behind the bad guy. Another benefit of FMJ in an automatic is more reliable feeding.

I use a hollow point in a revolver because my revolvers are of more powerful calibers than my automatics and can be relied upon to penetrate sufficiently even if they are HPs. Feeding reliability is not an issue with a revolver.

 

[arjay]

Take a few milk jugs filled with water and compare the hollow points to the fmj,then think about the environment you may be shooting in.

 

[cmort666]

The military use hard ball as they do not want to kill, they want to disable the enemy, resulting in it taking more personnel to care for wounded, than the dead, that can be left on the battle field.

A total myth. I challenge you to cite one OFFICIAL military document which states that as DOCTRINE.

The military uses ball because the Hague Conventions REQUIRE it. That's it, PERIOD.

As in a self defence situation, not want to kill or maim the perpetrator but to disable them???????????????

How do you shoot somebody with a firearm and NOT "maim" them?

If I have to shoot somebody in self-defense, my goal is to stop them from doing whatever caused me to shoot them in the first place. I don't care if that kills them, maims them, or knocks them into another dimension. As long as they stop their attack, I'm good with whatever condition my defense leaves them in, including totally unharmed.

 

[ShoreShooter]

Look at the ballistics films on youtube.

.380 does not penetrate as well in JHP, and using the FBI standards a .380 JHP does not penetrate enough. It does penetrate enough in FMJ.

9mm and above, on the other hand, penetrates fine in JHP, so you get the best of both worlds of penetration and expansion.

IMHO, it should be FMJ in .380, and JHP in 9mm.

But that just my opinion.

 

[drinva]

Speaking from a hunting background.....

I used hollow points for years and years. Each deer shot would run off just a little ways and die unless neck, spine or head shot. I was use to that. The hollow points explode, they throw lead out and into a very large tissue area, I have never gotten a complete bullet back.

This past year I went to a full metal jacket nickel plated bulllet. I was worried about many of the issues discussed above. After 5 deer on the ground I came to the conclusion that I had been using the wrong bullet for many years. ALL FIVE DEER DROPPED INSTANTLY IN THEIR TRACKS with the new FMJ bullets. Not a single step was taken from any of the five. The hits were so hard and shocking they just crumbled instantly. NEVER have I seen that in 40 years.

I believe this bullet change created something I had never had: a solid hit. I always shoot for the shoulder on deer as I like the effect from a shoulder hit. Meaning, I am hitting bone now and its devastating! Before with the hollow points they were exploding and this created a lack of knockdown power. These new FMJ bullets have solid knockdown power.

I carry all FMJ, I practice with it and I carry it. A person has just as many bones as a deer, and if I hit one bone, that person is going down, I'd bet money on it. Could I get a pass through? Sure I could, thats what back up shots are for.

Knowing your backstop is just a simple hunting rule that I have followed all my life. That is just common knowledge and being responsible.

DR

 

[chief38]

I RARELY carry my 1911 Colt Gov't model for SD, but the once or twice a year I do (when actually shooting it at the Range). I load 230 grain hardball. My Gov't model feeds just about everything and anything, but I really believe that Hardball is still the most reliable feeder at the end of the day. Even though I know it won't expand I have a lot of faith in the standard 230 grainer Hardball round. Well, that's my .02 cents.........

 

[Smithsrevenge]

Take this from a Former Maine.

Ball......is useless.

Immagine shooting an attacker, and they dont slow down.......just a nice clean through and through thats left traveling to strike the nice old lady behind them. Watch discovery healths ER sometime, watch how many bangers take 8 of them and leave 2 days later......not very comforting if you ask me.

Bad idea.

A ball round impacts, continues and exits. meaning 85% of the force of the round leaves the perp with the round.

Vs Hollow point.

Which strikes, expands and stops inside the body, making 100% of the force of the round strike the perp. kind of like being hit with a baseball bat in the chest. Also it doesnt leave said perp and injure those behind them.

I've seen the Beretta M9 used against insurgents. 5-10 rounds into them. and they stumble a bit, scream out "allah akbar" and start running again.

The reason the military hates the m9 and says "it dont knock em down" is not because of the gun, its because of ball ammo. And now that they have swapped to nylon rounds instead of lead its even more useless.

Only hard ball that was every really worth anything in SD is the .45 because its just so large. Worked great in WW2 and knocked the germans down with 1-2 rounds. anything less is asking for collateral damage.

Use HP. its designed to stop the threat, which is exactly what you want to do when your life depends on it. Dont worry about the attackers life, thats their job. And once they see your weapon if they keep coming anyway, their basically signing it away as is.

 

[snubbyfan]

Back when I was researching my choices for a concealed carry firearm, I read everything I could find on the subject. I remember reading an article about a legally armed citizen being cited for having hardball ammo in his concealed carry firearm. They said it was "criminal Indifference" because hardball ammo could overpenetrate and injure an innocent bystander.
I carry 110 grain Federal Hydra-shok hollowpoints in my snubby.

 

[drinva]

Tell those 5 deer from last year that ball ammo is useless.

Not saying its best for every caliber and person, but it's far far from useless.

DR

 

[Enzo]

I consider it irresponsible for me to carry non expanding ammo. Besides the over penetration issue mentioned above, there is the issue of misses either ricocheting, or penetrating a wall, or other barrier.

If I were forced to carry non expanding ammo, I would rethink carrying 9mm, and opt for a slower, larger round. .45 would be the choice.

Excellent point to remember and why I purchased an M&P 45c for concealed carry. It's been next to impossible to find jhp ammo since Newtown let alone range ammo and if I had to carry non expanding ammo, bigger(fatter) is better.

 

[Rastoff]

Back when I was researching my choices for a concealed carry firearm, I read everything I could find on the subject. I remember reading an article about a legally armed citizen being cited for having hardball ammo in his concealed carry firearm. They said it was "criminal Indifference" because hardball ammo could overpenetrate and injure an innocent bystander.
I carry 110 grain Federal Hydra-shok hollowpoints in my snubby.

You're gonna have to post a link to that case. I think it's just a story someone told you and isn't real.

You cannot compare a rifle round with a muzzle velocity over 2K FPS with a handgun round that's 1,100FPS or less.

I carry .45ACP ball all the time. A 9mm JHP might expand, but a .45 won't get smaller. Plus, it is the most reliable ammo for any gun. I'll take a reliable round any day.

 

[Rastoff]

One more thing. The US military uses hardball because of a thing called, "The Law of Armed Combat". Anyone that's served in a conflict should know that. It's required training before they deploy.

 

[Gyrene6891]

Take this from a Former Maine.

I've seen the Beretta M9 used against insurgents. 5-10 rounds into them. and they stumble a bit, scream out "allah akbar" and start running again.

The reason the military hates the m9 and says "it dont knock em down" is not because of the gun, its because of ball ammo.
Only hard ball that was every really worth anything in SD is the .45 because its just so large.

When the Marine Corps was working on getting the M9 some of us did our own research. In the only round authorized for use by the military, hard ball, the 45 had a 2-1 knock down capability over the 9MM. Part of the reasons the military went with the 9MM, the 1911's were worn out, a lot of the kids entering the military were afraid of the recoil of the 45, the M9 carrried many more rounds than the 1911, and this is key, more hits on target by beginning shooters.

 

[drinva]

Actually the comparison of this rifle to the handgun round is pretty darn doable. The rifle spits at 1580fps. Not that far from your 1100fps, but still, it is different by 480fps

DR