Holsters; proper fitting, materials, linings, etc.

[LoboGunLeather]

I just posted the following in response to a thread on "Horsehide or cowhide". Having been a holster-maker since 1972, I have dealt with these questions again and again. So I thought it might be of some benefit to start a new thread for exposure of this discussion.
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Please allow an old holster-maker to weigh in on this one.

For the typical user, there is no practical difference between the two, horsehide or cowhide. The real concern is in the tanning methods used on the leather, chrome tanning or vegetable tanning.

Chrome tanning utilizes chemical salts, which remain in the leather and can cause corrosion of the pistol. Even stainless steel pistols can incur patterns of surface pitting from exposure to chrome tanned leather.

Vegetable tanning utilizes plant matter (typically oak bark), leaving no chemical salts in the leather. Properly finished, vegetable tanned leather (horsehide or cowhide) resists moisture quite well.

I recommend inquiring about tanning methods before purchasing any maker's products.

A related item of high concern is holster linings. Very popular for "protecting the finish" of fine firearms, typically suede leather but occasionally smooth leathers. Comments: Most of the suede leathers on the market are chrome tanned (residual chemical salts), as are many of the smooth leathers used for linings. Also, suede attracts and retains moisture much more readily than properly finished vegetable tanned cowhide or horsehide. So, the owner of a fine handgun may spend considerably more money for a lined holster only to be exposing his handgun to far more likelihood of corrosion and finish damage.

Also, most holster wear is caused by friction within the holster during carrying, rather than by inserting and withdrawing the weapon. A properly fitted holster is the real key to keeping holster wear to a minimum.

Final word: I recommend that a firearm never be stored in any leather holster or case, as leather is known to attract and retain moisture, even from the atmosphere. The user who gets into the habit of putting his weapon into the (properly fitted) holster when it is time to carry, then removing the weapon and wiping it down thoroughly, will enjoy a far longer service life of the weapon (with maximum original finish remaining).

 

[flop-shank]

Thank you for this very useful information.

 

[11bravo]

that was well worth reading, thanks for the post

 

[rdrancher]

Thanks for the post Lobo. Learn something new everyday.

rd

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally posted by 11bravo:
that was well worth reading, thanks for the post

Thanks, 11bravo. I was 11F4P myself, back in the day. Vietnam, 101st Airborne Division and 1st Cavalry Division.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Sir;

With all due respect for your experience. Sorry, but I disagree with some of your remarks. There are some genuine practical differences to the user who will often find the holster exposed to wet conditions, heat and moisture ridden humidity, and body perspiration.

Horsehide is undeniably and infinitely more resistant to water and moisture than any cowhide. If anyone doubts this, I suggest you attempt to wet case and bone or mold horsehide, after just a brief immersion in warm water. It ain't happening!

Whe we wet case full grain cowhide, it takes about 20 to 30 seconds to soften in warm water adequately. Horsehide, takes hours. We soak it for several minutes and let it sit overnight in a plastic bag. Only then does it have the same malable consistency as cowhide.

Soft rolled horsehide butts, which are the only practical part of the hide for use in holster crafting, are generally 30 to 45 inches long by perhaps 20 to 30 inches wide at best. It is most often found in weights of 7/8 oz. and 9/10 oz., is vegetable tanned in France and imported here by only one leather import/export company, a Chicago firm, Horween leather, and sold to retail distributors and the trade by the pound rather than the square foot. The majority of horsehide is used in the shoe trade for Cordovan which is the prime or premium portion of the horsehide.

Horsehide is biologically, found to have a much denser fiber cell content than cowhide. This is why it is considerably more resistant to water than any cowhide. From a makers perspective, it achieves a superior finish, cuts beautifully and is very durable. A disadvantage is that horse butts almost always have a centerline mark that can be difficult to hide or cover and the small size of the hide limits the holsters it may be used to craft.

Chic Gaylord and I used this material for many years in his shop and made thousands of holsters from horse butts. He began using it well before WWII. As it became increasingly expensive and often difficult to procure during the last decade, we (BCO) ceased offering it as an optional material for selected models about 5 or 6 years ago. Horween, insisted on expensive minimum advance orders of 500 pounds, so Bell Charter Oak dropped their account entirely. I mention this only to illustrate that I have no alterior motive in my remarks. I no longer offer horsehide, so this isn't a veiled pitch.

I agree completely with your observations on tanning methods, linings and storage.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Lefty:

I bow to your obviously superior knowledge and experience with horsehide. Please note that I prefaced the applicable remarks with the note that for the typical user there was not practical difference.

Best regards,
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[flagaman1950]

Thank both of you gentlemen for your excellent information. Lefty, gracious response to a well presented remark. You both appear to be knowledgeble gentlemen and I salute you both.
Howard

 

[Spotteddog]

As always, with every post I read in this place I always come away knowing much more, than when I arrived!
(Not an unusual occurrence in my life, BTW!)

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Fellow Members;

One thing I've learned over the years in this racket, is that there is no typical customer. The fellow who lives in the southern delta region frequently has different needs or requirements than the guy from up Saskatchewan way.

Those subtle differences are often the very reason customers patronize custom makers. I don't know that I would characterize anyone as being average either, but I understand why we use that description for lack of better words. I agree with Lobo's observation, that for most users, cowhide vs. horsehide, in terms of it's performance, is inconsequential. But if concerns like service life expectancy in harsh conditions, in severe climates or other unusual excessive influences were at issue, horsehide would be a better choice of the two traditional gunleathers. Personally I'd go to Kydex and use one of my plastic frame pistolas.

Handgunner's will always seek out good leather accessories, regardless of the durable man made synthetic materials such as ballistic nylon and Kydex. Gunleather is an American tradition, right up there with Mom's apple pie! The guy who knows the true value of something, rarely asks the price. I suppose that's why you can still buy a Rolls Royce that isn't made in large part, from recycled plastic soda pop bottles.

BTW, kydex is not quite as new as we might imagine. It's been around for quite sometime. Gaylord experimented with a very similar material at the request of NASA during the very early manned space program. That was almost 50 years ago!

 

[george minze]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
Fellow Members;

One thing I've learned over the years in this racket, is that there is no typical customer. The fellow who lives in the southern delta region frequently has different needs or requirements than the guy from up Saskatchewan way.

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Lefty; I have a question for you and it has always, and in my case that's a long time. While in the marines I noticed the officers had just as shinny shoes as the enlisted men. those were the days of getting a pair of GI shoes and a bottle of Cordovan dye and polish and a ton of spite. I know officers didn't do that. while in SE Asia as an aircrewman I asked our pilot a squared away guy how did he shine his shoes ..He told me you could buy from Marine Exchange pure shell cordovan and once you had a base on it it would only take a minimum care to keep spit shined. He mentioned that cordovan leather, not color, came from a under laimie or skin of the horses ass. In some ways I thought that was appropriate concerning officers in the Corps. When I got out and became a cop I had a chance to buy a pair of pure cordovan plain toe shoes from an outfit called Threadneddle street and damn he was right. That was in 63 I still have those shoes and they still look good. they had a heavy heel and sole to start out with. One thing I found out about them you could sand out scuffs with real lite sand paper,and re dye them Explain why cordovan has those quality's I have always wanted to know the reasons they have such qualities. And the fact they bend but don't crease like cowhide, we used to have a Florsheim factory here and they carried almost the same shoe in their Imperial line at a very high price but the staff in sales knew less about the leather than I did....Make a old Cop happy and explain please...George
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Those subtle differences are often the very reason customers patronize custom makers. I don't know that I would characterize anyone as being average either, but I understand why we use that description for lack of better words. I agree with Lobo's observation, that for most users, cowhide vs. horsehide, in terms of it's performance, is inconsequential. But if concerns like service life expectancy in harsh conditions, in severe climates or other unusual excessive influences were at issue, horsehide would be a better choice of the two traditional gunleathers. Personally I'd go to Kydex and use one of my plastic frame pistolas.

Handgunner's will always seek out good leather accessories, regardless of the durable man made synthetic materials such as ballistic nylon and Kydex. Gunleather is an American tradition, right up there with Mom's apple pie! The guy who knows the true value of something, rarely asks the price. I suppose that's why you can still buy a Rolls Royce that isn't made in large part, from recycled plastic soda pop bottles.

BTW, kydex is not quite as new as we might imagine. It's been around for quite sometime. Gaylord experimented with a very similar material at the request of NASA during the very early manned space program. That was almost 50 years ago!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

George;

I believe Shell Cordovan is the layer of horse flesh which covers a major nerve, or at least that is what was explained to me. I'm not an equine anatomy expert, so I am merely repeating what I was told long ago. It is, and still remains, the most expensive portion of the hide, hence, the high expense at the shoe store cashier. It is synonomous with the highest quality in luxury footwear within the shoe trade and used by many top custom boot and shoe designers and makers.

Based upon the fact that this material makes some of the very highest quality shoes and that I have several pair including one Shell Cordovan pair of Kilties from Florsheim I would never part with, tells me you know the value of that material. It is expensive, no doubt. In fact I have had most of these for decades and they look as good as day one. They have repeatedly been re-soled, the last pair cost me over $100 to have them re-soled and heeled, which was about half of what I paid for them 25 years ago. I'll probably be buried in them!

I might mention that much of it is mule and donkey, along with horse, of course. I don't think there is much difference in the physical properties of each species hide though. You might ask a Frenchman, for their opinion, they are the true conniseurs when it comes to taste in horse dourves.

When I attend the local horse auctions in my neck of the woods, the auctioneer cries "Air FRANCE" when a well known local buyer wins the bid. He sells them off for French export, as meat and the hides are rendered and tanned. I realize this is disturbing to some horse people, but it is a fact whether we like it or despise the practice.

 

[george minze]

I just tuned 70 retired 5 years ago and then was Director of Public Safety at a University for 5 years. Now I'm in that useless stage. so i golf weather permitting, shoot weather permitting. I occasionally repair holsters for guys around here. When assigned in Nevada I ran into a handmade boot maker that is now in Kerrville Tx. I started buying his samples when he started using a last that fit me like a glove. I have always thought leather was the thing to use for holsters, and have bought over a 40 year LE career holsters from almost every high end maker that I knew off. From some that are not in business anymore. Like Minute Man, SD Myers, Allesi, of course Bianchi, and God knows who else. Tucker. Lobo. Gibson. Caldwell sorry I missed Bell Oaks./ I always look at a persons holsters and shoes. I was broken hearted when the Florsheim Factory close in Jeff City. They made or handled Shell Cordovan in their outlet store at the factory. their Imperial line was truly a shoe that now you must get from Italy, or UK. A true shoe rebuildable for years. Thanks for the education I have always knew there was something special about Shell Cordovan but didn't know exactly why. In this trow away society quality is still something to admire whether shoes holsters jackets etc. When I started you stood roll call with every thing shined, pressed and had to wear your hat. My son is a capt. with Public Safety and I have only seen him in a hat during inauguration of Governor. He says I'm old fashioned. To that I agree. to me quality is quality no excuses needed..thanks again and thanks for the info on molding horsehide. I never heard that but it sure makes sense.....George Ps; You guys making anything for the new Walther PPS. Indications are that little gun is selling good.