Home Brew FBI Load Fail

The oldest factory ammo spec sheet (Remington) I've got is modern enough to use a 4 inch vented test barrel. Much more recent ones from other makers also show 890 f/s as book for that load. I'd strongly suspect anything faster would be from the old SAAMI 8+ inch unvented test barrel.

Out of an actual 4 inch gun Federal 38G=840 f/s. 2 inch=774 f/s. Can't find the 3 inch data.
 
hollow points dont always work as expected. Its why lots of people have good success with testing upside down hbwc on water and gelatin, and others dont.

But to be honest, lead hardness is a problem. The matts bullets are supposedly 20:1 but pushed through a 6" barrel from a 38 special case, loaded with 13 grains of 2400 or 4227 as unle elmer and skeeter suggested,,,, i had no expansion at 20 yards into boards, rotting stump, mud, water jug.
Best I could get was crumpling of lead INTO the hollow point cavity, and chips.
 
And the FBI knows what they are doing? I think I would want to duplicate a load from an agency that knows what they are doing.

A hollow base wad cutter loaded backwards will mushroom.
Yes they do know what they're doing. Most forum-seekers know little to nothing of that which they speak. But opinions are fun.
 
I never counted on any "handgun" bullet to reliably expand 100% of the time, nor did I ever expect any "handgun" bullet to pass thru a windshield and strike its intended target. It may, or may not. Far too many variables to make any statements about such things, especially with the lower velocity of handgun ammunition. If you obtain bullet expansion from a handgun in any and all conditions you are most fortunate and really should start buying lottery tickets. FYI, I never carry reloads for self defense use, only known high quality ammunition at above average speed. It must go bang when I pull the trigger. Bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my intended target.

Does the FBI do a good job of ballistic testing? Certainly they do. They have the funding for such endeavors where most other departments do not. They have the funding to not only test ammunition and such, but also to purchase what they feel is best for their agents at that time. Some departments are so ill funded that their officers may carry a certain firearm for over a decade even though better items are out there and available. On a department living on a shoe string budget money for firearms and ammunition is way down on the list of needed purchases, except for qualification shoots some of which may only be once a year. The days of obtaining ammunition from your department to practice with are pretty much over.

There were far more issues with the infamous Miami FBI shootout than firearms and ammunition. One really has to read the final reports on this incident to get a clear understanding of what went wrong. I drew my own conclusions from this event a long time ago and a big problem was simple communication. Letting others know what you are doing so they can assist if needed. And that is still a problem to this very day.

Rick H.
 
I wanted to duplicate the infamous FBI 38 Special load for my revolver/rifle practice ammo. I used the Hornady 158gr lead SWC-HP with the knurled shank. I am loading them to 1000fps out or a 3" revolver and that gets 1400fps from the rifle. These bullets do NOT expand. The tumble and smush the hollow point over. what bullets are you using to get expansion? I may try a cast bullet instead of the swagged lead next time. I have had good performance from Matt's Bullets soft cast bullets in 44 and 45. I may see if their bullet will expand.
Use a 158 grain lead SWC with as wide a meplat as your lever action will feed, and don’t look back.
If you need a bigger wound channel, move up to a .44 or .45. Same style of SWC wide meplat. Cheaper bullets, too.
 
Yes they do know what they're doing. Most forum-seekers know little to nothing of that which they speak. But opinions are fun.
They may know what they are doing, however ensuring that the agents are proficient with their gun training, stress fire training and their overall capability is well above average from the run of the mill local PD officer will have more success than the perfect round of ammunition. Don’t get me wrong about everyday PD Officers, I’m not trying to play down their importance in our communities. Rather I am trying to make the case that the FBI agents should be among the best trained shooters available, and that doesn’t happen qualifying twice a year. And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it too.
 
Reread what I was quoting and reprocess your statement.
I see you say the Hornady is 'pointy', which tells me that's probably one reason it's not good on expansion. I'm not trying to negate or disagree your comment, just saying that what good is a hollow point that doen't expand? I'd expect something better out of a swaged bullet, being soft, but apparently the Hornady's only have a 'simulated' hollow point. I experimented with some hard cast HPSWCs one time that the HPs were obviously there for decoration because they looked as if they did everything they could NOT to expand. (In their defense they were heavy for caliber so I couldn't get the velocity, but I don't think it made much difference. ) Oh, another problem I can see with running swaged bullets in hot loads is possible leading. Probably not a big deal for defense use, but shooting them a lot in practice would probably lead the barrel.

I think I would tend to use a JHP and looking at the 'Lucky Gunner' tests a LOT of 158 gr. JHP bullets were no great shakes when it came to expansion and the Federal LSWCHP overpenetrated while the Remington's and Winchester's LSWCHP did pretty good. So it's a little tricky to get consistent performance. I guess that's why I prefer medium weight bullets that have reliable performance in penetration and expansion at the velocities they'll be used at. The good ones blow up to a half inch diameter or more.
 
Into what type of medium are you firing your bullets?

Over the years I have used old telephone books (dry and wet), newspaper (dry and wet), milk jugs filled with water, buckets of sand, probably a few others. Today the "standard" seems to be ballistic gelatin, with or without barriers of fabric, leather, etc (perhaps imitating the FBI laboratory testing procedures).

The best you can expect from any medium will be comparative data, how one bullet or load compares to another in that specific medium, on that day, in that particular firearm, etc.

I have used several hundred swaged handgun bullets from Speer and Hornady. I have also been casting my own bullets, including hollow-point styles, for over 50 years and using lead alloys providing a wide range of hardness.

Bullet expansion seems to be a mantra for today's shooters. Anything that doesn't mushroom perfectly in the testing media must be deemed insufficient for any purposes. That which expands to 1.7 times caliber diameter is deemed to be infinitely better than the one that only provides 1.2 times original diameter.

I have shot cast bullets in handguns and rifles at velocities from about 700FPS to 2500FPS (certainly not the same bullets or same firearms!), and I have taken a dozen or more game animals with cast bullets. In critters with fur, skin, bone, and muscle surrounding the vital areas very few bullets will expand usefully; if anything, too many will shatter or disintegrate, tumble, fail to maintain the intended path of penetration to do the necessary work.

Hollow-point bullets (whether jacketed, cast, or swaged) that impact on a living critter are much more likely to fragment, disintegrate, separate into pieces, and/or tumble than they are to mushroom out into a poster image for your scrapbook.

In North America soft-point expanding bullets have become the most popular, and many states require these for hunting use. In Europe, Asia, Africa, and much of the rest of the world solid bullets are the preferred choice (especially for large and dangerous game).

We can all choose what we want to use. Some choose based on advertising or published opinions (frequently those who make their living from manufacturers' endorsement contracts). Some of us choose to use what we know will get the job done without worrying about the tiniest details.

Just an opinion from an old heretic who has been down the same rabbit hole more than once.
I agree, and that is why my EDC load for my .44 is a soft HBWC reversed at about 800-850 fps. Why you ask? I have personal experience of two persons shot with HBWC at the same velocities, only in 148 grain .357 size. Both were quick one shot stops and the coroner stated he had never seen such devastation for a handgun bullet. I feel my lite Loud Mouthed loads will get me home for another day. Just reporting, not arguing. To each their own, but I agree, USE what you have proven works. Later...
 
45 BTWC_190gr (8).JPG
I shoot the Button nose WC turned backwards (45ACP) at target velocities in the military revolvers shoot. they punch perfect holes that can be scored from 25 yards. When asked what bullets I am shooting I answer Boat Tail Wadcutters.
 
They may know what they are doing, however ensuring that the agents are proficient with their gun training, stress fire training and their overall capability is well above average from the run of the mill local PD officer will have more success than the perfect round of ammunition. Don’t get me wrong about everyday PD Officers, I’m not trying to play down their importance in our communities. Rather I am trying to make the case that the FBI agents should be among the best trained shooters available, and that doesn’t happen qualifying twice a year. And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it too.
Thanks but I don't smoke. I have trained with FBI agents, instructed FBI agents and completed the FBI Firearms Instructor course and I can testify to you that they are no better, and often less, trained in the use of deadly force than most street officers. Administrative priorities do not include much active deadly force or critical decision-making training. And you are correct that fight skills outweigh ammo or firearms selection.
 
When I moved to FL I was required to take the comparative compliance course course offered by the Palm Beach County Police Academy. I think it was a 2 week course mainly just Florida Statutory Law but it included a firearms qualification administered by a couple of FBI agents.

On qualification day, when it was my turn at the line, the agent saw I was using speed loaders, which I'd been using for several years. He told me I couldn't use them. When I asked why not he said "what happens if you run out of speed loaders?" I replied "Then I'm *explicative* out of ammo! I qualified with bullets stuck in my mouth and wedged between my ammo belt. I qualified with no problem as I was a good shot at the time, but while thinking what a moron the agent was.

I'm certain there are many good FBI agents but my personal experiences have never caused me to assume they were top notch. My experience hasn't let me to naturally assume DEA agents were top grade either. I assume their selection process of the FBI and DEA normally eliminates those of lower natural intelligence but I'm not sure it does much more than that. The one guy I knew that left a local agency to go to the DEA was certainly an intelligent guy but he wouldn't win any awards for honesty or character in general.

I'm sure there are many fine Federal agents. My optimism for that has improved lately.
 
They may know what they are doing, however ensuring that the agents are proficient with their gun training, stress fire training and their overall capability is well above average from the run of the mill local PD officer will have more success than the perfect round of ammunition. Don’t get me wrong about everyday PD Officers, I’m not trying to play down their importance in our communities. Rather I am trying to make the case that the FBI agents should be among the best trained shooters available, and that doesn’t happen qualifying twice a year. And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it too.
That would be a hard case to make.

When I was actively competing in USPSA, a B/C class competitor would outshoot virtually any FBI agent that was willing to show up and compete.
 
I never counted on any "handgun" bullet to reliably expand 100% of the time, nor did I ever expect any "handgun" bullet to pass thru a windshield and strike its intended target. It may, or may not. Far too many variables to make any statements about such things, especially with the lower velocity of handgun ammunition. If you obtain bullet expansion from a handgun in any and all conditions you are most fortunate and really should start buying lottery tickets. FYI, I never carry reloads for self defense use, only known high quality ammunition at above average speed. It must go bang when I pull the trigger. Bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my intended target.

Does the FBI do a good job of ballistic testing? Certainly they do. They have the funding for such endeavors where most other departments do not. They have the funding to not only test ammunition and such, but also to purchase what they feel is best for their agents at that time. Some departments are so ill funded that their officers may carry a certain firearm for over a decade even though better items are out there and available. On a department living on a shoe string budget money for firearms and ammunition is way down on the list of needed purchases, except for qualification shoots some of which may only be once a year. The days of obtaining ammunition from your department to practice with are pretty much over.

There were far more issues with the infamous Miami FBI shootout than firearms and ammunition. One really has to read the final reports on this incident to get a clear understanding of what went wrong. I drew my own conclusions from this event a long time ago and a big problem was simple communication. Letting others know what you are doing so they can assist if needed. And that is still a problem to this very day.

Rick H.
Miami shoot out!
Never take pistols to a rifle fight!
Armed engagement must be approached with overwhelming firepower and superior tactics!
And as mentioned maintain good communications with adjacent agencies.
These observations also apply to the LA Bank Robbery! :)
 
I do not reload my carry ammo however if you insist, try buying the bullets Federal HST uses (if available) as they do expand very well. Personally, I'd just get a few boxes of Factory ammo that you do like and call it a day. For shooting at the target range expansion is just not needed.
 
The Speer 158gr SWCHP has a larger deeper and much more fragile hollow point then the Hornady version it also has a crimping groove. I like it very much on 5.2gr Unique or 6gr of PP or N340.
 

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