Homeschooling

[AManWearingAHat]

Seems lately that home schooling children is on the rise. I've been hearing about growing dissatisfaction with public schooling from a lot of my friends, especially in more urban areas. What used to be kind of a fringe practice seems to be going mainstream as I now know several families that home school. It seems that education, like everything else, has fallen victim to politicization which is driving parents out of traditional class room settings.

I was a public school kid in the 90ies and early 2000's and I couldn't tell you the political affiliation of any of the teachers I had, even looking back with an adult perspective it would be a coin toss. I think this is an overall good thing and I look back on my education very fondly and think I had a great batch of professionals who really put the kids first and approached the profession with a lot of integrity. Now it seems every week you hear stories about teachers and school boards deliberately trying to undermine the role of parents in the child's upbringing. Concerning to say the least. Local grade schools in the city I used to live in have rainbow flags flying outside which is bizarre to me to say the least given the ages of the children in attendance.

What are your thoughts and experiences? Should concerned parents be pulling their kids out if the schools are not respecting their wishes as parents? Or can the public schools be saved by parents re-engaging to try and right the ship?

 

[rmax]

My oldest stepdaughter has been a grade school teacher for over 20 years, the school system a small to medium sized Nebraska school that graduated less than 100 last year. She shocked me last year when she said she has 11 years until she can retire. This is from one who always wanted to be a teacher and who I thought was relatively happy with her job.

So what changed over the years? Number one are parents. The parents ( or increasingly parent) want the school to raise the kid. Classroom antics, which can be violent at times, draw comments from the little angels parents that blame the teacher and the school. If the school tries to discipline, that starts a process that quickly turns into a legal fest.

Next are the school administrators and school boards. From what I can tell the principals and superintendents at her school will not back up a teacher to restore order to the classroom. Turnover in administrations is common. School boards don’t help in some cases, with members trying to exert their own agenda.

Finally, the absolute crap that the teachers have to follow based on the regulations from Washington and Lincoln are mind numbing. And the so called standards. Has anyone looked at a lesson plan that a teacher for fourth grade has to follow? Or looked at a math text book? No wonder graduates can’t read or do math.

Now, everything comes down to money. If your school wants the state and federal dollars, then you bow to their wishes. Want to use a real math textbook? Then your dollars go away.

You know what I would like to see? I wish some state would tell D.C to pound sand and forgo the federal dollars and return the curriculum to the communities. If Lincoln wants to embrace a leftist curriculum, let them. If a rural district wants to teach a solid basic group of courses that teaches a kid how to read and actually do math, let them.

Until a community grows a collective pair and demands that the schools teach rather than try to imbue thought, nothing will change.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

So she wants to retire after 30 years? Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

My grandchildren all went to public schools.

I can see why people home school but it is the parents call.

 

[bobsguns]

I too never knew who my teachers voted for. Nor were they "socially conscience" & all that crap.

I get why parents want to homeschool now. I do. But homeschooling doesn't teach kids proper social interaction skills. How to handle a kid with minimal English, for example. Or how to handle a bully.

The worst thing, by far, about homeschooling is the 12–14-year-olds don't get to experience full-on dodgeball!!!!!!!

 

[Denverd0n]

I think this graphic pretty much tells you all you need to know about what has gone wrong with our education system...



In 20 years the number of students increased by 7.6%, the number of teachers increased by 8.7%, and yet the number of administrative staff went up by a whopping 87.6%!!!

Seriously. Does anything more have to be said?

Yeah, I understand perfectly why people are unhappy with the public education system and therefore making the choice to homeschool.

 

[Onomea]

Good graphic, Denverd0n, but, source?

I’ve read essentially the same about colleges and universities, the professorial and student numbers have remained fairly constant as administrators and tuition cost growth has zoomed up.

 

[ameridaddy]

From 1987-1996, we took ten foreign exchange students, each staying with us for eleven months, who went to a public high school here that was considered the best high school in our county. Per a US State Department requirement, they all had to take two semesters each of American History and American Literature. Even though they were using English as a second language, they all aced the courses and thought those courses and for that matter, all their other courses here, were easier and less rigorous than their schools back home in Europe and Scandinavia. That was telling to start with.

Most of them were very interested in understanding our three branches system of government system versus their parliamentary systems, and were disappointed in the sketchy presentation they were given versus what they expected. One girl told me in disappointment they spent just one class period on the US Constitution in American History, but spent weeks on Native American culture and astonishingly, three periods just on the Anasazi Indians, a Four Corners tribe of cliff dwellers extant about 600 AD and who disappeared about 1200!
In American Literature, most of them had read more American Lit back in their home schools and on their own than they did here for school. IIRC, they only read two actual books cover to cover over the school year, and the rest of their course work was based on excerpts from the actual literature in workbooks followed by questions on the excerpts.

I believe a large part of the problem is the shift to an emphasis, nay, a primary requirement, on education degrees to teach instead of a primary emphasis on becoming a subject matter expert with the education credentialing as a secondary requirement. For example, my grandfather earned an MA from Harvard in English in 1928, and got his required high school teaching credentials over the summer after he graduated, as did all the teachers in my high school in the 1950's - 60's. Not a one of them had an education degree; all held a Bachelor, Master, or PhD degree in their subject.

 

[JRB416]

As to the OP's question regarding experiences with home schooling I will offer this.

Both of my girls were home schooled. At the end of the high school equivalent years, their SAT scores were very high and they were offered generous scholarships at all of the Universities they applied for.

Both graduated with honors (Summa and Magna Cum Laude) and hold masters degrees. My oldest daughter has a bachelors degree in theology as well.

Their social growth was met by being active in our church and community. They volunteered at the local hospital, animal shelter, retirement homes, etc to help instill responsibility.

My wife was a high school teacher (French & English) and when we decided to home school she was able to resign her job and became a stay-at-home mom. She devoted herself to our daughters educations so they were never without guidance and supervision.

In short, I am a proponent of home schooling. With this caveat...the parents or persons involved with the child's education and development must be very closely involved and realize what type of commitment and amount of work will be required.

Remember they will see you every day and you are their example.

Home schooling is not for everyone, but my wife and I would do it all again.

JMO

 

[Onomea]

There is, as I understand it, a lot of pressure on public schools and teachers, to be sure all the kids pass on to the next grade. And there is also the widely held belief that all kids should go to college. And, there is a lot of money to be made in college education. And, we have a system where it is very easy to borrow money to go to college.

And, I forget the number, but something like half the kids who enter college do not complete it, and emerge with crushing debt.

And colleges, and banks, are making a lotta money off this.

I think school, elementary, junior high, and high school, should be academically hard. If you can’t pass the grade, repeat. I do think the idea of free education for children, and compulsory education for children, is the right thing to do. But, if you only make it to sixth grade by the time you are 16 — as happened with one of my fellow students in the 6th grade — so be it. Find some gainful employment at that point

Not everybody needs to go to college. As we often discuss, trade schools work for many to ensure successful financial futures, Or, other blue collar jobs. Nothing wrong with that. Good money to be made. Gotta work hard, but that, too, is just the way things are. College should be for kids who are good at academics, enjoy studying, and value the rewards that come with true academic success. (And to be financially successful, they gotta work hard, too.)

I also think that the fact that in the US college costs so much more than anywhere else in the world, and generates so much more profit, goes to show that our educational priorities are out of whack.

 

[Bro. Dave]

...the famous saying, "it's complicated" is appropriate here. To support my preaching habit at a small church I resorted to teaching. My degrees (B.S. Elementary Education; M.Ed. in Education Administration; Ed.D. in Educational Leadership) are in education and I taught students from 5th grade to college.
Some resulting observations:
1. Subject matter mastery by the teacher does not necessarily mean one can communicate the subject matter to students. In fact in can be a handicap due to "not understanding why they don't understand."

2. Students are coming from home environments that vary from warm and nurturing to fractured and totally dysfunctional.

3. Mandated outcomes on standardized testing and linking them to assessment of teacher competency fosters "teaching to the test" as a defense mechanism.

4. Technology has developed so quickly and changes so rapidly (think AI) that teaching a curriculum that prepares students for emplyoment is an exercise in prognostication.

5. An individual with required education to teach could easily have applied that preparation to careers with FAR less frustration and FAR more remuneration. Ergo, it is as much a calling as a career choice.

6. I have no clue how to solve these complex issues.

 

[38magnum]

I too never knew who my teachers voted for. Nor where they "socially conscience" & all that crap.

I get why parents want to homeschool now. I do. But homeschooling doesn't teach kids proper social interaction skills. How to handle a kid with minimal English, for example. Or how to handle a bully.

The worst thing, by far, about homeschooling is the 12–14-year-olds don't get to experience full-on dodgeball!!!!!!!

simply having your child or grand child watch one of the following movies

The Dirty Dozen

The Wild Bunch

 

[Buzzzer]

We homeschooled our 4 kids. I've heard the "social interaction" argument forever, hogwash. From an early age our kids were complimented by other adults because they could actually have an intelligent conversation with them. They couldn't with the public schooled kids, at all. Bullies? Our kids were taught to be nice, until it's time not to be nice. Stand up for yourselves but also stand up for others who can't.

Heck, I taught our boys that when I wasn't home, they were the men of the house. Mom was in charge but their job was to be her and their sisters protectors. I recall my wife telling me a couple of times that they stood between my wife and daughters when they felt someone was getting too close (they weren't even teenagers yet).

However, all homeschooling is not equal. I've seen some pretty lousy homeschooling from lazy parents. People forget that parenting is the most important job of all. Not careers, not status, not money. We didn't have much in the way of money back then but we're proud of all our kids and would do it again...

 

[BourbonCowboy]

Seems lately that home schooling children is on the rise. I've been hearing about growing dissatisfaction with public schooling from a lot of my friends, especially in more urban areas. What used to be kind of a fringe practice seems to be going mainstream as I now know several families that home school. It seems that education, like everything else, has fallen victim to politicization which is driving parents out of traditional class room settings.

I was a public school kid in the 90ies and early 2000's and I couldn't tell you the political affiliation of any of the teachers I had, even looking back with an adult perspective it would be a coin toss. I think this is an overall good thing and I look back on my education very fondly and think I had a great batch of professionals who really put the kids first and approached the profession with a lot of integrity. Now it seems every week you hear stories about teachers and school boards deliberately trying to undermine the role of parents in the child's upbringing. Concerning to say the least. Local grade schools in the city I used to live in have rainbow flags flying outside which is bizarre to me to say the least given the ages of the children in attendance.

What are your thoughts and experiences? Should concerned parents be pulling their kids out if the schools are not respecting their wishes as parents? Or can the public schools be saved by parents re-engaging to try and right the ship?

I've been in the education business for 25 years - nine years as a classroom teacher, and 16 years as an administrator in every position from assistant principal to superintendent. I've seen a number of parents choose to homeschool their kids, but none of had anything to do with politics. I think this occurs more in larger cities, as you mentioned. The vast majority of parents who removed their children from public education claimed some type of mistreatment by other students - which could not be verified by the school. Typically, the exodus involves first moving their student to another nearby district (sometimes more than one) - only to find the problem persists. This usually brings about a return to their home district and subsequent homeschooling.

I think homeschooling can be successful if a parent understands that homeschooling involves more than just putting the child behind a monitor or book. It's a hands-on process that requires a high level of time and commitment from both parent and student.

What are your thoughts and experiences? Should concerned parents be pulling their kids out if the schools are not respecting their wishes as parents? Or can the public schools be saved by parents re-engaging to try and right the ship?

Which parents and which wishes are you referring? Schools can't be everything to everyone. I believe that the effort towards this end is one of the leading cause of the decline of many schools. And as for parents: I think parental involvement can be great, but too often it's the parents who are the problem.

An example: Years ago, there was a theft in the school in which I was the assistant principal. I pulled up the video and easily found the thief. According to policy, I had to suspend the kid, but I also had to call the parent first - which I did. She immediately came to my office like a rolling ball of Hell. I can't remember exactly how many times she told me that her "son is not a thief" or "he would never steal from anybody." I expected this and had the video clip pulled up and ready to play (I could do this only because he was the only person in the clip and clearly identifiable.) When she saw the video, she looked me in the eye and said, "That's not my son." I told her that he would be suspended and, if the item wasn't returned by the next morning, I would turn the matter over to the police. The next morning, when I arrived a work, there was a trash bag containing the item in front of the school door. Of course I pulled up the video on the camera system and saw mom dropping off the bag. Nevertheless, she took to social media and bashed me for the rest of the year.

 

[6string]

It’s not just about political affiliation of teachers.

Quality of education matters.
Many students throughout the country, having received a K-12 “education”, are not even proficient in the fundamentals that were once considered to be Grade 6 equivalent.

Public schools are funded based on numbers. They get those numbers up by lowering standards to the lowest level so that kids slide on through with a minimum effort.
Just as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, public schools academic standards are only as high as the dumbest kids from the most dysfunctional homes. Nobody fails. Everybody is passed through. The lowest common denominator rules.

I can tell you with 100% certainty based on 34 years of teaching on the collegiate/university level, incoming student candidates from public K-12 institutions have neither the knowledge, maturity or intellect that was considered midrange ability as recently as 25 years ago.
Home school students and students from private schools, charter schools, etc. stand head and shoulders above. It’s not even close!

 

[BourbonCowboy]

It’s not just about political affiliation of teachers.

Quality of education matters.
Many students throughout the country, having received a K-12 “education”, are not even proficient in the fundamentals that were once considered to be Grade 6 equivalent.

Public schools are funded based on numbers. They get those numbers up by lowering standards to the lowest level so that kids slide on through with a minimum effort.
Just as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, public schools academic standards are only as high as the dumbest kids from the most dysfunctional homes. Nobody fails. Everybody is passed through. The lowest common denominator rules.

I can tell you with 100% certainty based on 34 years of teaching on the collegiate/university level, incoming student candidates from public K-12 institutions have neither the knowledge, maturity or intellect that was considered midrange ability as recently as 25 years ago.
Home school students and students from private schools, charter schools, etc. stand head and shoulders above. It’s not even close!

I agree to a point. But, how many of the "dumbest kids from the most dysfunctional homes" are home schooled, or attend private or charter schools? Home-schooling in a dysfunctional home is often a waste of time. Charter and private schools can pick and choose their students. Public schools don't have that luxury.

 

[6string]

I agree to a point. But, how many of the "dumbest kids from the most dysfunctional homes" are home schooled, or attend private or charter schools? Home-schooling in a dysfunctional home is often a waste of time. Charter and private schools can pick and choose their students. Public schools don't have that luxury.

All very good points!

But, not only do public schools not have the luxury of picking and choosing students, quite often the reverse is just as true!

I really feel bad for kids that have brains and talent that, through circumstances beyond their control, are doomed to suffer through the mind-numbing mediocrity of the typical K-12 experience.
Not only do they rarely get to live up to their potential, the frustration they experience by being imprisoned in such a horrible environment often leaves them resentful or unfulfilled in ways that impact their entire adult lives.

Every kid and parent deserves at least a choice in accepting or finding an alternative to the garbage being pushed by the American public education system.

 

[olfart]

I'm concerned that parents will opt for home schooling when they themselves are not properly educated nor motivated to do the job right. Done properly, home schooling produces excellent results. But it takes a LOT of work on the part of dedicated parents to get the job done.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have a mild form of Dyslexia, my school system in the 1970's didn't allow that to exist! Most, but not all of my teachers were lazy and incompetent! As an adult I live in the same school district. My oldest is too strong willed to be home schooled, so instead of public school, my kids went to a small church-based school. All did very well with the professions they chose. The oldest two chose the military and their technical training, The younger two chose college. (Entry on academics were never a problem.)

Of my 9 grandkids, one in 3rd grade has Autism. She and her 1st grade sister are home schooled! The State of New Jersey has great programs for both gifted and problematic children, but the local school is where the collapse happens. This local school board has not one program to help developmentally disabled students. So, they are home schooled by a stay-at-home mom with a BS in Organic Chemistry. The Younger sister is officially 2 years behind, but is doing everything the 3rd grade curriculum teaches! The 3rd grader is at 6th grade math and reading! (She just can't handle broke routine and complex social interactions.)

One county over, I have Triplet grandson that test in the top 1% in the state. Their school keeps them from getting bored by suppling harder than standard curriculum. One State up, in Pennsylvania, I have two grandkids that have been maxing out the state school board's AP curriculum. Funny how one little segment on a chromosome, decides if you are a genius or autistic.

Both type of kids require special instruction, so they aren't just wasted intellect! That requires a dedication to that purpose, and resources (and that mean money!)

Ivan

 

[pawngal]

Iowa was formerly ranked at the top or near the top in education, but is crashing down to low middle. private school enrollment is up, homeschooling is up, public school enrollment is down. it's a mess from Pre-K all the way up to the state universities. Too much politics involued to go into detail.
Politics in public schools? My high school years were interesting, 2 years of American History and Social Studies my teacher was a dyed in the wool Republican, had her during Kennedy's campaign & election. She made her views well know, she thought he was too young, she didn't like Catholics, hated Democrats and even worse were the Independants. If Kennedy was elected, it was the fault of the Independants, fact.. Senior year, Government teacher leaned Democrat, I was in that class when Kennedy was shot.
My experience taught me to vote for the person, not the party.

 

[SMSgt]

My ex D-in-L is a teacher. Her kids are dumber than a pair of rocks.

 

[Petrov]

I may be biased but it seems to me you would have to be a crappy and lazy parent if you dont co-cop/homeschool your kids.

 

[quinine]

As a kid who was yanked out of public school (as well as kicked out of one private school), I think it's complicated.

Public schools can sink for a variety of reasons: Teacher quality, facilities, mismanagement, political agendas on either side, etc. Once parents who appreciate the value of schooling, and who have other options, start to pull kids out then it accelerates the problem. I've seen vouchers work well in some environments, but not others.

I think it's a tough dilemma. Parents should have choice but public schools represent the potential for kids to get exposure to others at an early age, which I do think makes them better adults. Schools serve the purpose to educate, but also to socialize and, honestly, babysit. Homeschooling is a legitimate approach but unless the parents who oversee and conduct the teaching are pretty educated, balanced and dedicated, I don't know if they're going to hit the mark.

It's easy to throw rocks, but being a competent teacher in a school is tough. Homeschooling is no walk in the park, either.

 

[BourbonCowboy]

All very good points!

But, not only do public schools not have the luxury of picking and choosing students, quite often the reverse is just as true!

I really feel bad for kids that have brains and talent that, through circumstances beyond their control, are doomed to suffer through the mind-numbing mediocrity of the typical K-12 experience.
Not only do they rarely get to live up to their potential, the frustration they experience by being imprisoned in such a horrible environment often leaves them resentful or unfulfilled in ways that impact their entire adult lives.

Every kid and parent deserves at least a choice in accepting or finding an alternative to the garbage being pushed by the American public education system.

All schools, at least in my state, are required to offer AP courses and concurrent credit courses. If a student wants a rigorous education, it's available for them.

And charter and private schools don't have to play by the same rules that are mandated for public schools. There is no mandate that teachers must be certified (or on a state-issued waiver assuring that they are seeking certification. The students are not required to take the same state-mandated achievement tests that public school student take. These are bones of contention in public education here.

I know of one private parochial school in which very few of their "teachers" were actually certified. Parents of this schools' students proudly preened while boasting about their children being on the honor roll. But the ACT test revealed that almost none of them were college ready. In fact, their ACT scores were so low that they were required to take remedial courses in college - meaning that while they paid for them, they didn't count toward their degree.

Of course, this isn't representative of all charter and private schools. But things like this do happen more than you might think.

 

[Petrov]

All schools, at least in my state, are required to offer AP courses and concurrent credit courses. If a student wants a rigorous education, it's available for them.

And charter and private schools don't have to play by the same rules that are mandated for public schools. There is no mandate that teachers must be certified (or on a state-issued waiver assuring that they are seeking certification. The students are not required to take the same state-mandated achievement tests that public school student take. These are bones of contention in public education here.

I know of one private parochial school in which very few of their "teachers" were actually certified. Parents of this schools' students proudly preened while boasting about their children being on the honor roll. But the ACT test revealed that almost none of them were college ready. In fact, their ACT scores were so low that they were required to take remedial courses in college - meaning that while they paid for them, they didn't count toward their degree.

Of course, this isn't representative of all charter and private schools. But things like this do happen more than you might think.

It is hard for me to be precise with my thoughts because cursing is against the rules on the forum.
I will say this, even though my public school(the one epstein went to) offered AP courses I was too buys not getting stabbed or beaten into a coma to earn a good grad or much less pass anything.

Your kid will spend 7 hours a day being directly influenced by the people going there, you will never be able to compete with that.
So what do you want your kid to learn? APR, financing saving, planning for the future and delayed gratification or "showing their ass" on tiktok for "likes"?

 

[BourbonCowboy]

It is hard for me to be precise with my thoughts because cursing is against the rules on the forum.
I will say this, even though my public school(the one epstein went to) offered AP courses I was too buys not getting stabbed or beaten into a coma to earn a good grad or much less pass anything.

Your kid will spend 7 hours a day being directly influenced by the people going there, you will never be able to compete with that.
So what do you want your kid to learn? APR, financing saving, planning for the future and delayed gratification or "showing their ass" on tiktok for "likes"?

In a situation like this, homeschooling is definitely the way to go.

I'm unfamiliar with the New York public school system. Do you consider your experiences to be the norm or the exception with regard to public education there?

 

[cololab]

Clearly, home schooling isn't going to work for every family. As others have said, there are too many variables to consider, and there are no doubt many examples of failed education efforts in both home school and public school models. I have family members who have gone the home school pathway with excellent results; others who have chosen charter schools with like outcomes.

 

[fatcat3]

Yesterday. AP.
" The Supreme Court cleared the way Monday for California schools to tell parents if their children identify as transgender without getting the student’s approval"
Yesterday. COLUMBUS, Ohio (WSYX)
"Columbus City Schools has placed a teacher on administrative leave while it investigates allegations that she led an unauthorized student protest against Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) at Independence High School."

"unauthorized"?????? It would have been okay if she had asked the admin????

Yet high school grads can't read past a 3rd grade level, make simple change, find the USA on a map or know who fought in the US civil war.
Why home school? Any more dumb questions?
Now all you "teachers or friend/family of "teachers" can flame me to your hearts content.

 

[Rudi]

I worked 16 years in public schools. RUN AWAY!! Been retired now for 10 years, I hear it has gotten even worse.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

I have known more parents who were dismally qualified to teach their own children, than I have teachers who I wouldn't trust with my kids. Lot's more.

That said, every situation is different. Frankly, I don't know how I'd react if I found out my kids were being taught by someone pushing any kind of personal agenda, but I doubt it'd be pretty.