Hornady LNL Powder Through Expander

[smokindog]

A "sub discussion" in this thread piqued my curiosity about the Hornady Powder Through Expander (PTX).

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/384550-basic-dies-pistol-ammo-progressive-loaders.html​

I currently have 4 die set ups for most of my pistol calibers which leaves no station for a powder cop. I'm not too concerned in that I always unload all stations and restart whenever there's an anomaly, I have plenty of light in the press body to observe the cases at each station, and I'm just slow and cautious as I work.

However, I'm now curious to hear from folks that use the PTX and can give pros/cons or other input such as impact on setting up the case activated powder drop, ... when using this method versus the separate die. Looks to be about $10 per caliber to buy the PTX insert.

 

[Moonman]

The NEW Hornady PTX's work better, the OLDER MODELS pretty much didn't work.

There is also a deal from Powderfunnels.com but IT ONLY BELLS THE MOUTH.

 

[Huskerguy]

I also have the LNL and love it. I started right off with the Powder Funnel universal expander. It does have slight drawbacks in that it doesn't make quite as nice of a bell but so far with 9mm, 38/357, 40 S&W, and 45 I have not had a problem using many different types of bullets. I just leave this in the powder measure and adjust as necessary. For me it is much easier than buying several different ones and to keep changing them. I then use the RCBS Powder Die with the stop which I also really like.

Here is a link to the funnel site
Powderfunnels.com -- Fully Featured Powder Through Exapnder

Here is a video of it being set up and used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2rtPkTcMkI

 

[smokindog]

Moonman, I've got a newer LNL AP press (about 20 mos) and setup. Do you have any more details? Dropping powder isn't a step I think I'm all that keen on "multi tasking" but interested to learn if I'm mistaken!!!!

BTW, I'm originally from Warrensville Hts (SE Cleveland suburb) if that's anyplace close to your NE Ohio designation

 

[Moonman]

smokindog,

I'm not sure how many months the newer PTX's by Hornady have been out.

Watch the video in post #3. Gavin Gear (ultimatereloader.com) is demonstrating the Powderfunnels.com unit

The slotted piece behind the spring was invented by a forum poster somewhere,

Hornady then started selling them as an optional part.

Hornady then started including them with newer presses.


The Newer CALIBER SPECIFIC PTX's are a $10 each option.

The slotted piece allows for the easier adjustment of the belling amount.

The earlier PTX's had very little radius at the top of the case expanding nub to bell the mouth any amount.

The newer Hornady presses also have PRIMER RAMS that have solid diameters,

older ones had undercuts and TRASH accumulated there causing priming issues.

Hornady was at one time sending out THE NEW RAMS for free to folks that called them.


The newer LNL-AP's also have a new breakaway piece at the bottom of the 1/8" or so vertical rod.

I'm a bit away from the Cleveland area, but Interstates travel fast.

 

[Twoboxer]

I use my LnL AP for 223 plinking, 380, 9mm, and 45ACP. I've used the Hornady PTXs from the gitgo to keep "crimping" separate from seating while using a Powder Check Die. I have no experience with the "Universal" PTX expander.

The bottom line is it works perfectly fine.

On my way to that bottom line, I needed to spend some time learning how all the adjustments come together to produce full powder drop and case belling. How far the quick change die is screwed into the press, how/where it is clamped/attached to the powder measure/linkage, the setting of the PTX Linkage screws . . . all combine with the height of the case you are filling to form (what was for me) a puzzle.

Once I played with it enough to understand it, it was fairly easy to attach the Quick Change Die to the PM at the right height and set the die in the press (bushing) at the right depth to allow the other adjustments to handle case/caliber changes.

Were I to do it over again, I would spend time at the press setting up the PTX system to properly bell each case/caliber at the same sitting. That way you see patterns and the learning comes at the same time . . . and not when you want to produce ammo lol.

At the end of the day, I wound up buying a second PM (one for rifle rotor, one for pistol), and a quick change die, ptx linkage, and meter for each caliber. Mechanical adjustments are no longer required.

I just grab the right QCD, attach it and the PTX linkage to the appropriate PM, and place it on the press. Takes ~2 minutes to get from bare press to testing to see if I need to adjust the powder charge for today's run.

I would not want to give up a press station just to bell the case. YMMV.

 

[Moonman]

twoboxer and smokindog,

Go over to Thefirearmsforum.com

Look under AMMO & RELOADING for a STICKY

"HORNADY LNL-AP SET-UP HINTS AND TRICKS"

it's a complete video series by 76Highboy aka Bill Morgan aka Jim.


Great series, one part is the powder measure and how to quickly

and accurately set it up.

The series will have your press running like a top, he

eliminates the issues that many have.

 

[smokindog]

That's a great series, I've watched and recommended it many times. Good call out, can never highlight good stuff too many times Is there a specific section on the PTX I've missed or forgotten about

Hornady LNL AP Press Set Up Hints and Tricks, Part 1 - YouTube

twoboxer and smokindog,

Go over to Thefirearmsforum.com

Look under AMMO & RELOADING for a STICKY

"HORNADY LNL-AP SET-UP HINTS AND TRICKS"

it's a complete video series by 76Highboy aka Bill Morgan aka Jim.


Great series, one part is the powder measure and how to quickly

and accurately set it up.

The series will have your press running like a top, he

eliminates the issues that many have.

 

[Moonman]

smokindog,

I'm not sure about the specific PTX's being in his videos as his press is older but between it and the above deal

about the Powderfunnel adjustment, they would adjust the same way for final belling.

The BIG THING is to make the rotor fully rotate and click at THE TOP & BOTTOM of the slot for consistent drops.

The socket head screws in the slotted pieces allows for the FINE TUNING of the Case Belling Amount.

 

[smokindog]

Ya, when I first started with the press it took me awhile to understand how to get the "full motion" of the throw arm just right. That was one of my concerns about using the PTX!!! BTW, I was pretty sure mine is the newer version as it came with the additional adjustment linkage and everything. I always like to hear from others though.

Thanks again!

smokindog,

I'm not sure about the specific PTX's being in his videos as his press is older but between it and the above deal

about the Powderfunnel adjustment, they would adjust the same way for final belling.

The BIG THING is to make the rotor fully rotate and click at THE TOP & BOTTOM of the slot for consistent drops.

The socket head screws in the slotted pieces allows for the FINE TUNING of the Case Belling Amount.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . The BIG THING is to make the rotor fully rotate and click at THE TOP & BOTTOM of the slot for consistent drops. This part is obviously important, but is also easy to do . . .

The socket head screws in the slotted pieces allows for the FINE TUNING of the Case Belling Amount. . . . but getting proper case belling AND full powder drops is a bit trickier.

Simply put, it is possible to set up the powder measure in such a way that you get full powder drops, but it would be impossible to bell the case at all . . . or you might be able to do nothing but get too much bell.

Those other adjustments . . . die depth, how high/low the PM is attached to the QCD . . . must be such that they allow the other adjustment to control belling for the given case(s).

It isn't hard, but it will take a few minutes to figure out

 

[dickttx]

I moved my Lee 4 die sets and Pro Auto Disk to my LnL when I acquired it.
The Lee expand/bell/powder through die works so well with the PAD that I didn't want to learn the powdermeasure too while I was learning the press. I loaded 38 Super and 45 ACP with that setup for a year and a half.
When I decided to load some 9mm the case was so short the Lee PAD/die would not work with it. So I unpacked my LnL measure, bought a expander/flare insert and with a couple of calls to Hornady CS got mine working. Didn't even consider using the measure in the third hole (besides, I didn't have a Hornady flare die). Not having to change calibers when I do occasionally load 9mm, it is somewhat simplified, but from what CS told me and other reading I presume that you would get separate powder dies and the related expander/flare die for each caliber.

 

[Moonman]

dickttx,

Correct, each caliber has a PTX.

I've recently started to play around with Lyman "M" dies as I load mostly cast.

The Hornady Quick change bushing system makes switching things around very quick.

 

[peterthefish]

I use the PTXs for all pistol calibers I reload. Never had a single issue, but the initial setup (getting powder throw and belling calibrated) can be a pain.

If you're willing to get a separate Quick Change powder die for every caliber you reload they're worth it. If not, you might find the extra setup time a pain if you reload less than a thousand or so of a caliber at a given time.

 

[Moonman]

Yep, the QUICK CHANGE powder dies are a great way to spend $30-$35,
a die setup and quick change bushing, go for it.

On my Dillon I use $$$$ complete set ups,
TOOLHEAD, TOOL STANDS, DIES, POWDER DIE, POWDER FUNNEL AND THE POWDER MEASURE.

About $185 each or so for that Dillon deal.

The Hornady's not too bad a deal.

 

[peterthefish]

Yep, the QUICK CHANGE powder dies are a great way to spend $30-$35,

a die setup and quick change bushing, go for it.



On my Dillon I use $$$$ complete set ups,

TOOLHEAD, TOOL STANDS, DIES, POWDER DIE, POWDER FUNNEL AND THE POWDER MEASURE.



About $185 each or so for that Dillon deal.



The Hornady's not too bad a deal.

Another plus with the Hornady is the ease of mixing and matching dies. I load 38 Short Colt, 38 Special, and .357. One sizing die (the expensive one) fits all. Use the same seating die for 38 SC/9mm & 38 Special/357. So I just had to add the QC Powder Die and a Crimp die for each caliber after .357 - I think < $50 all in per caliber.

 

[johngalt]

I have the older Hornady expanders for .45 and .357. They don't work all that well. I still use the .45, quit using the .357.

One issue having the expander in the powder measure is setting up the powder measure. I like to throw at least 5 - 10 charges to verify that the powder has settled and is throwing consistently. This leads to the case being over-expanded from running through the expander multiple times.

 

[Twoboxer]

I have the older Hornady expanders for .45 and .357. They don't work all that well. I still use the .45, quit using the .357.

One issue having the expander in the powder measure is setting up the powder measure. I like to throw at least 5 - 10 charges to verify that the powder has settled and is throwing consistently. This leads to the case being over-expanded from running through the expander multiple times.

Mine are less than 2 years old, so I can't compare them to "the older Hornady expanders" . . . but I don't know how a Hornady PM with properly tightened linkages can overexpand a case after multiple powder throws.

The only thing I can think of is similar to OAL variations that can occur when OAL is set at Station 4 with no cartridge going through the resizer in Station 1 . . . and then getting a different OAL when there IS a cartridge in Station 1.

But even that kind of effect should be minimal/nonexistant because - unlike the resizer and seating die - the PM is very close to the axis of the two bolts holding the subplate to the rest of the press.

Ever ask Hornady about it?

 

[johngalt]

Mine are less than 2 years old, so I can't compare them to "the older Hornady expanders" . . . but I don't know how a Hornady PM with properly tightened linkages can overexpand a case after multiple powder throws.

The only thing I can think of is similar to OAL variations that can occur when OAL is set at Station 4 with no cartridge going through the resizer in Station 1 . . . and then getting a different OAL when there IS a cartridge in Station 1.

But even that kind of effect should be minimal/nonexistant because - unlike the resizer and seating die - the PM is very close to the axis of the two bolts holding the subplate to the rest of the press.

Ever ask Hornady about it?

I suspect that what is going on is because the old ones don't expand enough, I have the powder die set a little low, so the case is forced a bit more onto the expander. Each time the same case goes through, it expands a little more. I was having all kinds of problems with shaved bullets, even jacketed.

I didn't know Hornady had new ones. I'll have to call and see if I can get them.

I didn't know about the update to the primer punch, that would be nice to have too.

 

[johngalt]

smokindog,

The slotted piece behind the spring was invented by a forum poster somewhere,

Hornady then started selling them as an optional part.

It looks like you need a separate part for each case length that you are using, assuming you don't want to keep fiddling with it when changing. Is this correct?

Right now I have separate powder dies for each case, so it wouldn't be an issue to get a separate one for each also.

 

[Maximumbob54]

This is my opinion talking but I think the PowderFunnels.com PTX insert beats the tar out of the Hornady PTX inserts. I bought a few bullet seating dies and they come with the latest Hornady PTX inserts and I quickly rebuilt it with the PowderFunnels PTX instead. Add to that it works much better when seating a cast bullet. Now let Hornady stop screwing around a make a copy of the M-die for a PTX insert and that might have me sing a different tune.

 

[B's640]

That's a great series, I've watched and recommended it many times. Good call out, can never highlight good stuff too many times Is there a specific section on the PTX I've missed or forgotten about

I recently spoke to Jim who is the maker of these videos about this very thing. He told me that he does not have a PTX video, and that he's not used one. Oh well. Maybe one of the folks here who have been successfull setting theirs up would do a video for us with their tips and tricks. That would be cool

 

[dickttx]

This is my opinion talking but I think the PowderFunnels.com PTX insert beats the tar out of the Hornady PTX inserts. I bought a few bullet seating dies and they come with the latest Hornady PTX inserts and I quickly rebuilt it with the PowderFunnels PTX instead. Add to that it works much better when seating a cast bullet. Now let Hornady stop screwing around a make a copy of the M-die for a PTX insert and that might have me sing a different tune.

The powder funnel is only a flare insert. The PTX is an expander/flare.

 

[Twoboxer]

So I thought I'd post this here . . .

Last night I went downstairs to do 1k 9mm rounds on my LnL AP. Had nothing but trouble . . . cases were sticking to the PTX Expander, popping loose, and spitting powder all over the place. Cleaned the PTX, buffed the PTX, ground the PTX, tried case lube . . . no change. Frustrated, I went upstairs, priced some Dillon equipment from Brian Enos, and went to bed

Today I went back down to give it one more try. Found the problem . . . because I have a lock washer on the shellplate it looked/felt secure . . . but it was not tightened sufficiently.

So the cases would "stick" to the PTX . . . hard enough to lift the shellplate . . . until it reached its limit . . . releasing the case . . . which then rocketed back down to the subplate . . . popping powder out.

Tightening the shellplate allowed the "stuck" cases to come off the PTX Expander at the speed of the ram's movement, eliminating both the feeling of a stuck case and the powder spills.

Probably saved me $2k too lol.

 

[smokindog]

Loose shellplate seems to manifest itself in many ways!!! I'm still debating the PTX

So I thought I'd post this here . . .

Last night I went downstairs to do 1k 9mm rounds on my LnL AP. Had nothing but trouble . . . cases were sticking to the PTX Expander, popping loose, and spitting powder all over the place. Cleaned the PTX, buffed the PTX, ground the PTX, tried case lube . . . no change. Frustrated, I went upstairs, priced some Dillon equipment from Brian Enos, and went to bed

Today I went back down to give it one more try. Found the problem . . . because I have a lock washer on the shellplate it looked/felt secure . . . but it was not tightened sufficiently.

So the cases would "stick" to the PTX . . . hard enough to lift the shellplate . . . until it reached its limit . . . releasing the case . . . which then rocketed back down to the subplate . . . popping powder out.

Tightening the shellplate allowed the "stuck" cases to come off the PTX Expander at the speed of the ram's movement, eliminating both the feeling of a stuck case and the powder spills.

Probably saved me $2k too lol.

 

[63expert]

I use the PTX setup for .40 and .38. I use a Lyman M die for .30 carbine. My PTXs work great.

Here is a write up I did about making the AP run better:

Originally Posted By TZ250:
I received a Hornady LNL AP for my birthday. I have read a great deal about the care and feeding of these machines, and the trials and tribulations that some experienced. My press ran well for me after the initial setup, but there was one issue that bothered me. At index on the downstroke of the ram(handle moving up), the shellplate would jump the last few degrees as the balls went home into the detents. No amount of tuning with the pawls would cure the abnormal movement. Closer examination showed that the shell plate was riding slightly above the sub-plate until the balls started to ramp into the detents. As the balls tried to go home the shellplate would leap forward and then sit down onto the sub-plate. This was not so bad except for the fact that I was loading .40S&W and the flake powder would occasionally hop out of the cases. I went looking for a solution. I took the shellplate off and then removed the sub-plate, exposing the drive hub and drive shaft. Seeing the relationship of the parts showed that the height of the drive hub and the height of the sub-plate set the clearance for the shellplate against the sub-plate. I called Hornady CS and described my problem. They sent a new drive hub but it was identical to the one in the press.

What follows is my solution to this problem.

I started by measuring the height of the drive hub and the height of the sub-plate. I found that the drive hub was .014" taller than the sub-plate. This difference is what allowed the shellplate to float above the sub-plate during indexing. I am a machinist and I knew the issue could be solved on a milling machine, but I wanted to come up with a no-cut solution. The drive hub is 1" in diameter and the ram area that it sits in has a 1.562" bore. I began to search for a shim set that would work and found one without to much trouble or cost.

Now to the good part.

This is the shim assortment, with sizes from .001 to .125". 1"ID and 1.5"OD. $7.90 to my door from eBay.

[url=http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7420/11656897056_a07881a0c0_c.jpg]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7420/11656897056_a07881a0c0_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr


Here you can see the drive hub sitting on the drive shaft.

[url=http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11656630066_3ed10917f0_c.jpg]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11656630066_3ed10917f0_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

Measuring the drive hub from shoulder to face shows that its critical dimension is .942"

[url=http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/11655871145_56540e8f06_c.jpg]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5485/11655871145_56540e8f06_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

Measuring the sub plate shows a height of .928"

[url=http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5519/11656233914_46c0b987bb_c.jpg]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5519/11656233914_46c0b987bb_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

This results in a .014" clearance. I knew it needed to be less. I decided to try a .004" clearance. Using the .01" shim showed great improvement, but I thought the clearance could go to .003". No .011" shim is provided so I made a stack out of a .005 and .006" shims.

Checking the stack.

[url=http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5490/11656238594_e0d690a725_c.jpg]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5490/11656238594_e0d690a725_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

The shims in place on the drive hub.

[url=http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/11655884295_6aa393a687_c.jpg]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/11655884295_6aa393a687_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

Now when the shell plate is tightened the drive hub will be pulled barely above flush, keeping the shellplate in contact with the sub-plate and making the indexing of the press ultra smooth.

[url=http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/11655857285_1ed8284773_c.jpg]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/11655857285_1ed8284773_c.jpg[/url]
Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

If you read much at all about the AP you will find many that complain about the lack of ability to seat primers below flush. My first run of 100 rounds resulted in two high primers, the rest just flush. I determined that this was also a result of the shellplate rising from the sub-plate. Pushing harder on the handle only resulted in the primer punch housing bottoming against the frame. Now with the clearance set the press will seat primers below flush with ease.

I hope that this thread will help those with a Hornady AP to create better ammo and be able to enjoy their press even more. Thanks for looking!

The rest of the thread, which has some good info, can be found on your favorite black rifle website..

 

[Twoboxer]

Thoroughly enjoyed that thread. Sometimes the shims are the fix, sometimes you can just tap the ball bearings deeper into the shellplate.

I bought the shims, but after raising the ball bearings haven't needed to use them yet.

 

[smokindog]

Hey, I may be "thick" here but could you post a link to that thread? I don't THINK it violates any rules!

I use the PTX setup for .40 and .38. I use a Lyman M die for .30 carbine. My PTXs work great.

Here is a write up I did about making the AP run better:





The rest of the thread, which has some good info, can be found on your favorite black rifle website..

 

[Twoboxer]

Hope it's not against the rules, because this thread is long and a very helpful contribution - pro and con - on how to deal with "tolerance stacking":

How to Tune the Hornady LnL AP Progressive Press

 

[63expert]

I didn't post the link because I didn't know if it was cool. Glad you all liked the thread.