tbc
Member
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How accurate are you at X distance?
- Thread starter Claymore_Dude
- Start date
hangnoose
Member
tight groups
yes Virginia tight groups are possible at longer ranges by shooters with the skills that put in the time & practice. I wish I had the computer skills to post pics so nobody can throw a bs flag. the closest distance at my club is 10 yds, or 30 feet. now with 56 y/o eyes, nerve damage, the shakes, and pain, I have to use a support/rest and wrist braces but avg app 4-6" groups at that distance easily with all handguns. much better with others. and can usually hit a golf ball with most once I get in the zone. I just shot a true 4 1/2" group at 50 yd's with my new to me Ruger mkII Gov't mdl, Volquartzen tricked out Frankenpistol. my best with a Sig 239 40 cal and my best handloads was a one hole 1 1/2" @ 30'. what I see at the public range at 10 yd's is generaly a disgrace, not only can't many hit the target, but the frames are all shot up. shooting at longer ranges helps, no less than 25 yd's imo. I generally shoot at a 3" metal spinner at 25 yd's, to make it challenging. if you can hit with every shot, you are too close.
yes Virginia tight groups are possible at longer ranges by shooters with the skills that put in the time & practice. I wish I had the computer skills to post pics so nobody can throw a bs flag. the closest distance at my club is 10 yds, or 30 feet. now with 56 y/o eyes, nerve damage, the shakes, and pain, I have to use a support/rest and wrist braces but avg app 4-6" groups at that distance easily with all handguns. much better with others. and can usually hit a golf ball with most once I get in the zone. I just shot a true 4 1/2" group at 50 yd's with my new to me Ruger mkII Gov't mdl, Volquartzen tricked out Frankenpistol. my best with a Sig 239 40 cal and my best handloads was a one hole 1 1/2" @ 30'. what I see at the public range at 10 yd's is generaly a disgrace, not only can't many hit the target, but the frames are all shot up. shooting at longer ranges helps, no less than 25 yd's imo. I generally shoot at a 3" metal spinner at 25 yd's, to make it challenging. if you can hit with every shot, you are too close.
agksimon
Member
Slow fire, two hand hold, my M&P9c and my M&P22 both shoot just over inch sized group at 8 yards offhand. At 25 yards, three inches or less off the bench, using good ammo.
Both guns have had the triggers lightened to 3-4 lbs.
Both guns have had the triggers lightened to 3-4 lbs.
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BubbaBlades
Member
I shot a M&P for the first time last weekend because the person that I was instructing asked me to check his gun's sight alignment. I don't usually shoot anything other than a derringer at 7 yards but I wanted to shoot at the same distance that the gun owner was using. I shot three times and all of the shots were about 2" from my point of aim at the 4 o'clock position. Two of the shots were touching and the third shot was less than 1" from the other two. My instruction must have paid off because the M&P owner was able to shrink his group size from about 10" to less than 5" by the end of our session.
Since I was already at the range and done instructing, I tested some Federal Hydra-Shok .40 135 grain ammo that I picked up at a gun show on Saturday. The gun that I used was a Charter Arms Pit Bull .40 and my target was a 1" shoot'n'see dot at 15 yards. The first shot was totally inside of the dot at the 12 o'clock position and the second shot went thru the same hole without showing any evidence of increasing the hole size. This my replace the below pictured 7 shot group from my S&W 317 as my best unsupported 15 yard group ever.
Mark
Since I was already at the range and done instructing, I tested some Federal Hydra-Shok .40 135 grain ammo that I picked up at a gun show on Saturday. The gun that I used was a Charter Arms Pit Bull .40 and my target was a 1" shoot'n'see dot at 15 yards. The first shot was totally inside of the dot at the 12 o'clock position and the second shot went thru the same hole without showing any evidence of increasing the hole size. This my replace the below pictured 7 shot group from my S&W 317 as my best unsupported 15 yard group ever.
Mark
OP
Claymore_Dude
Member
Wow, that's some incredible shooting from the lot of you! Thanks for the tips and videos. I will definitely check them out and practice, practice, practice!
hangnoose
Member
accuracy
a common trick shooters shot was to hit a coin tossed in the air. a 3" group at 25 yd's-75' is not bad, but a far cry from top shot material. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's shooting. one good thing about the ammo shortage is that during the week at the range, it's pretty much just the diehards and the overall quality of shooting has gone up tremendously. many shooters at 30' are keeping baseball size groups. I would feel real embarrassed if I couldn't hit a grapefruit every time at 30 feet. snubbies / point shooting / mouse guns, maybe double that group size.
a common trick shooters shot was to hit a coin tossed in the air. a 3" group at 25 yd's-75' is not bad, but a far cry from top shot material. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's shooting. one good thing about the ammo shortage is that during the week at the range, it's pretty much just the diehards and the overall quality of shooting has gone up tremendously. many shooters at 30' are keeping baseball size groups. I would feel real embarrassed if I couldn't hit a grapefruit every time at 30 feet. snubbies / point shooting / mouse guns, maybe double that group size.
hangnoose wrote: a 3" group at 25 yd's-75' is not bad, but a far cry from top shot material
I really don't want to sound argumentative, but speaking strictly from my own Bullseye competition perspective, consistent 3" groups at 25 yds would in fact be top shot material and more. The standard 25-yd Bullseye targets are the NRA B-16 (slow fire) and B-8 (timed/rapid). The 9-ring on the B-16 has a diameter of 2.6" and the 10-ring on the B-8 has a diameter of 3.36".
Assuming the gun to be sighted correctly, and considering that groups are measured from the center of the shot holes but Bullseye scoring is done from the inside edge, a 3" group likely translates to a score in the 90's on slow fire and near-100 for the other two stages, for a National Match total (one 10-shot target each stage, perfect score of 300, for those who may not be familiar with Bullseye) of at least 290, probably a few points more.
An average in the 290s would make someone the high shooter in any of the several Bullseye leagues I've competed in over the last few decades. I've personally known (slightly) only two 290s shooters (Don Hamilton and Babe Magnin, both legends in the Bullseye community). As an additional point of reference, the legendary Brian Zins won the 2012 Camp Perry National Pistol Championship with a score of 2649 - that's out of 2700 possible, which translates to the equivalent of 294.3 out of 300. Other recent winning scores were 2632 in 2011, 2650 (Zins again) in 2010, and 2646 in 2009.
Outside of free pistol, Bullseye is probably the most demanding pistol discipline in terms of accuracy and precision, so I think 3" groups at 25 yds are very very good indeed.
I really don't want to sound argumentative, but speaking strictly from my own Bullseye competition perspective, consistent 3" groups at 25 yds would in fact be top shot material and more. The standard 25-yd Bullseye targets are the NRA B-16 (slow fire) and B-8 (timed/rapid). The 9-ring on the B-16 has a diameter of 2.6" and the 10-ring on the B-8 has a diameter of 3.36".
Assuming the gun to be sighted correctly, and considering that groups are measured from the center of the shot holes but Bullseye scoring is done from the inside edge, a 3" group likely translates to a score in the 90's on slow fire and near-100 for the other two stages, for a National Match total (one 10-shot target each stage, perfect score of 300, for those who may not be familiar with Bullseye) of at least 290, probably a few points more.
An average in the 290s would make someone the high shooter in any of the several Bullseye leagues I've competed in over the last few decades. I've personally known (slightly) only two 290s shooters (Don Hamilton and Babe Magnin, both legends in the Bullseye community). As an additional point of reference, the legendary Brian Zins won the 2012 Camp Perry National Pistol Championship with a score of 2649 - that's out of 2700 possible, which translates to the equivalent of 294.3 out of 300. Other recent winning scores were 2632 in 2011, 2650 (Zins again) in 2010, and 2646 in 2009.
Outside of free pistol, Bullseye is probably the most demanding pistol discipline in terms of accuracy and precision, so I think 3" groups at 25 yds are very very good indeed.
hangnoose
Member
ACCURACY, NOT SHOT PLACEMENT
to me skill is a one hole group, it demonstrates better shot to shot consistency and technique and I don't care a whole lot if it's not in the ten ring. in bullseye comp a larger shot group can score more points than a much smaller group further from the x ring. diff game, diff rules. having a tiny group all in the x ring would be ideal.
to me skill is a one hole group, it demonstrates better shot to shot consistency and technique and I don't care a whole lot if it's not in the ten ring. in bullseye comp a larger shot group can score more points than a much smaller group further from the x ring. diff game, diff rules. having a tiny group all in the x ring would be ideal.
miles71
Member
7 yards 50 rounds center mass, threw a few out.
Tried the smaller target next
. Not an m&p but still did ok.TD
Danno_man
Member
I don't shoot my M&P much, and i don't think i've shot it in over 6 months. Last weekend i had a 2 day handgun class. the first day i shot my 2011, then the next day i shot my M&P.
the first 10 rounds were shot at a 1" square target paster @ 7yards. this was the first shots fired that day to see how everyone could perform. The first group was ~3" due to 1 flier (first shot), the rest were ~1.5". Then we shot another 10rds at another paster. This time it was I was slightly larger than the 1" paster. Ammo was Blazer Brass 115gr
After lunch i switched to a G17 (which i've only put 50rds through about 2-3 months ago) and ran an evolution with it. After that evolution the instructor saw that some were getting sloppy with their shots, so we did a 5 round group at 7 yards. that group was less than an inch. At the end of the day we did another 5 rd group and it was still under an inch. Ammo was Blazer Brass 115gr
I know that i have solid fundamentals and it shows, even when switching guns.
I don't have photo's of the above, but here are some other's that i have.
This is from last fall, with one of my 2011's. 20rds @ ~15yards. the shots at 6 and 9 were on purpose because i couldn't tell if i was staying in the black or not. The black dot is ~1". Ammo WWB 115gr
The gun responsible for the group above
This is from ~2years ago when i first got this 2011 Tactical 4.15. this was the first 10rds group that I shot at 15yards. Ammo WWB 115gr
First outing with my DW Guardian, which was 3 years ago. this is the first 5rds @ 15yards. 1st round was the flier. Ammo WWB 115gr
This was 14rds & 15yards when i got my Reminton R1 3 years ago. the first 4 high shots were figuring out the sights are 15yrds. Ammo WWB 230gr
If you can't tell, I'm mainly a 1911/2011 shooter.
the first 10 rounds were shot at a 1" square target paster @ 7yards. this was the first shots fired that day to see how everyone could perform. The first group was ~3" due to 1 flier (first shot), the rest were ~1.5". Then we shot another 10rds at another paster. This time it was I was slightly larger than the 1" paster. Ammo was Blazer Brass 115gr
After lunch i switched to a G17 (which i've only put 50rds through about 2-3 months ago) and ran an evolution with it. After that evolution the instructor saw that some were getting sloppy with their shots, so we did a 5 round group at 7 yards. that group was less than an inch. At the end of the day we did another 5 rd group and it was still under an inch. Ammo was Blazer Brass 115gr
I know that i have solid fundamentals and it shows, even when switching guns.
I don't have photo's of the above, but here are some other's that i have.
This is from last fall, with one of my 2011's. 20rds @ ~15yards. the shots at 6 and 9 were on purpose because i couldn't tell if i was staying in the black or not. The black dot is ~1". Ammo WWB 115gr
The gun responsible for the group above
This is from ~2years ago when i first got this 2011 Tactical 4.15. this was the first 10rds group that I shot at 15yards. Ammo WWB 115gr
First outing with my DW Guardian, which was 3 years ago. this is the first 5rds @ 15yards. 1st round was the flier. Ammo WWB 115gr
This was 14rds & 15yards when i got my Reminton R1 3 years ago. the first 4 high shots were figuring out the sights are 15yrds. Ammo WWB 230gr
If you can't tell, I'm mainly a 1911/2011 shooter.
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Danno_man
Member
here's one of the drills that I do when i'm helping friends shoot.
VIDEO0048.mp4 - YouTube
VIDEO0030.mp4 - YouTube
VIDEO0031.mp4 - YouTube
Here is a target of 1 friend i helped out. I had him shoot his normal way on the target on the right. Then the target on the left i would hand him his gun with an empty or loaded chamber. The target on the right was only 5-6 rounds, and he knew he messed up when he pulled the trigger that caused the flier. This was shot at 7 yards.
just found another photo. This is from May when I shot a G17 after installing sights. This was only 5rds at 7 yards.
VIDEO0048.mp4 - YouTube
VIDEO0030.mp4 - YouTube
VIDEO0031.mp4 - YouTube
Here is a target of 1 friend i helped out. I had him shoot his normal way on the target on the right. Then the target on the left i would hand him his gun with an empty or loaded chamber. The target on the right was only 5-6 rounds, and he knew he messed up when he pulled the trigger that caused the flier. This was shot at 7 yards.
just found another photo. This is from May when I shot a G17 after installing sights. This was only 5rds at 7 yards.
The is from my first range trip last week with my pre-owned but unfired M&P9C. This consisted of the traditional "failure to stop" drill=2 rds center mass fired as quick as possible keeping the finger on the trigger & firing the 2nd shot as soon as I hit the trigger reset point, then 1 head. I started at 3 yards, then 5, then 7. I saved the last 12 rounds for 15 yards where I double tapped center mass. Total of 120 rds fired.
The pistol is completely stock though I'm currently waiting for the Apex duty/carry kit to install, should be here in a day or two.
These were all with Federal American Eagle 115gr. fmj:
The pistol is completely stock though I'm currently waiting for the Apex duty/carry kit to install, should be here in a day or two.
These were all with Federal American Eagle 115gr. fmj:
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OP
Claymore_Dude
Member
Jeeze, I'm embarrassed that the compact guys are getting better groups than me. Haha, I changed my back strap to the medium and found a tremendous improvement with my grip. Hopefully this will close the gap. Also, thanks for the videos! I never used to be able to do that casing trick, but now I've got it done to 6/10 times. Still gotta keep practicing!
All these examples are great!
I have been shooting,
230g plated rn
4.8g 700x
1.20" oal.
at 7yds most are 5" with the warm up wild one.
200 lrnfp
5.1 700x
1.20"
a little better but still the occasional flyer/yip.
In a shoot challenge, 10 shot in a pie tin at 10yds in 10sec.!
it is fun to reload and shoot good groups
Chuck
I have been shooting,
230g plated rn
4.8g 700x
1.20" oal.
at 7yds most are 5" with the warm up wild one.
200 lrnfp
5.1 700x
1.20"
a little better but still the occasional flyer/yip.
In a shoot challenge, 10 shot in a pie tin at 10yds in 10sec.!
it is fun to reload and shoot good groups
Chuck
OP
Claymore_Dude
Member
Haha, I really laughed at that line. Thanks for the contribution!
Danno_man
Member
Keep practicing, i still do just about every other day. With the ammo shortage, you can get a lot of good trigger time with dry fire practice. Also make sure that you have a consistant grip as well. these little tips will help tighten up your groups in no time.
It's not the quantity of rounds that you send down range, it's the quality.
So attached picture is from today.
I'm shooting the rental ammo in a rental S&W M&P standard sized pistol in 9mm, not sure of details.
Group of five at upper right at 3-4" is about the best I can do. Distance is 7 yards.
I am trying to consistently apply the fundamentals of marksmanship, but I have a question.
I'm having trouble keeping both eyes open, while at the same time staying focused on the front site. For years and years anytime I shot, I would squint with one eye open, and look at the target. My brain is having a hard time adjusting to the new sight picture where I see both rear sites, both front site and a real clear target.
You guys have any suggestions how to improve?
BTW my background = New shooter, have fired 1,085 9mm/.22 rounds so far this year.
I'm shooting the rental ammo in a rental S&W M&P standard sized pistol in 9mm, not sure of details.
Group of five at upper right at 3-4" is about the best I can do. Distance is 7 yards.
I am trying to consistently apply the fundamentals of marksmanship, but I have a question.
I'm having trouble keeping both eyes open, while at the same time staying focused on the front site. For years and years anytime I shot, I would squint with one eye open, and look at the target. My brain is having a hard time adjusting to the new sight picture where I see both rear sites, both front site and a real clear target.
You guys have any suggestions how to improve?
BTW my background = New shooter, have fired 1,085 9mm/.22 rounds so far this year.
Bkreutz
US Veteran
Practice, Practice, Practice.
Some people have trouble shooting with both eyes open, some can never master it. I think it depends how your brain is wired. If you shoot better with one eye, do it that way. If you have to shoot moving targets or... have to move your point of aim from target to target fast is where both eyes open really make a difference. Kinda depends on what you are wanting out of shooting. Sometimes shooting with one eye to build confidence and then working the other eye open into the process can work too.
Some people have trouble shooting with both eyes open, some can never master it. I think it depends how your brain is wired. If you shoot better with one eye, do it that way. If you have to shoot moving targets or... have to move your point of aim from target to target fast is where both eyes open really make a difference. Kinda depends on what you are wanting out of shooting. Sometimes shooting with one eye to build confidence and then working the other eye open into the process can work too.
don't have pic, but just come in from shooing a couple of magazines full.
Model: M&P9 Full Size
Ammo and Grain: Reload 124 hp and FMJ (one mag each)
Distance to target: 7 yards/21 feet
Size of grouping: 5.5"
I've just had the M&P9 a little less than a month and have 200+ rounds thru it. This was the first time I really concentrated on keeping a tight group with two consecutive magazines full. and I was pleasantly surprised. I have never shot handguns a lot; mostly shoot varmint rifles and trap and skeet. I'm really happy with the way this gun shoots. very comfortable and ergo correct for my arthritic hands.
Model: M&P9 Full Size
Ammo and Grain: Reload 124 hp and FMJ (one mag each)
Distance to target: 7 yards/21 feet
Size of grouping: 5.5"
I've just had the M&P9 a little less than a month and have 200+ rounds thru it. This was the first time I really concentrated on keeping a tight group with two consecutive magazines full. and I was pleasantly surprised. I have never shot handguns a lot; mostly shoot varmint rifles and trap and skeet. I'm really happy with the way this gun shoots. very comfortable and ergo correct for my arthritic hands.
Danno_man
Member
I'm having trouble keeping both eyes open, while at the same time staying focused on the front site. For years and years anytime I shot, I would squint with one eye open, and look at the target. My brain is having a hard time adjusting to the new sight picture where I see both rear sites, both front site and a real clear target.
You guys have any suggestions how to improve?
The eye can only focus sharply on one object at a given distance, and not 3 objects at 3 different distances. So when shooting you want a sharp/hard focus on your front sight.
Here's a photo i took of one of my 2011's. In it, you can see that the front sight is in sharper focus and the rear sight is slightly blurred (as the serrations aren't in focus). This is what your sight picture to be when firing the gun.
Also when shooting groups, don't shoot, stop to look where your bullet impacts, then shoot and repeat. Pick a spot to aim at and fire your rounds.
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hangnoose
Member
aim at the same spot each time.
my Bro adjusts his point of aim with each shot practically, drives me crazy. get a good group, then worry about getting it centered. IMO. had a guy next to me constantly readjusting his poa. he finally drilled one dead center, and bragged and bragged. I hated to burst his bubble, but said, you were bound to hit it sooner or later. you hit every other part of the target and frame.
my Bro adjusts his point of aim with each shot practically, drives me crazy. get a good group, then worry about getting it centered. IMO. had a guy next to me constantly readjusting his poa. he finally drilled one dead center, and bragged and bragged. I hated to burst his bubble, but said, you were bound to hit it sooner or later. you hit every other part of the target and frame.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Good pic Danno Man. Here's the one I like for proper sight alignment and sight picture:
Note that the front sight is in sharp focus. There is equal daylight on either side of the front sight and the tops of the sights are aligned. The rear sight is out of focus and the target is out of focus.
Also, this depicts a 6 o'clock hold. I use a center hold because it's not distance or target dependent which the 6 o'clock is.
Note that the front sight is in sharp focus. There is equal daylight on either side of the front sight and the tops of the sights are aligned. The rear sight is out of focus and the target is out of focus.
Also, this depicts a 6 o'clock hold. I use a center hold because it's not distance or target dependent which the 6 o'clock is.
Will try, it is just hard for me to do that.
Maybe I can use one eye to get 'sighted in' then try opening both.
Danno_man
Member
a lot of dry fire practice will help. when i was first starting to get serious about handgun shooting, i used to be a 1-eye shooter. after a lot of dry fire practice over the years, i shoot with both eyes open. the dominant eye knows what it needs to do. For longer/precision shots, i'll close and eye, but when running/gunning, both eyes are open.
one thing that you can do is grab an empty toilet paper roll and look and an object (through the roll at arms length away) with both eyes open. close one eye and have the other open, if you can see the object through the tube, that is your dominant eye, if not, then it's your other eye. now with both eyes open, just look at stuff around the room (through the tube). that is pretty much what it will be like when shooting with both eyes open, your eyes will know what they need to do.
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Riflemann
Member
I have been getting 5" groups at 7 yards with my 5" M&P40L CORE. I also like shooting golf balls on the ground with a large sand pile as a back stop from 7-15 yards.
tbc
Member
Lots of good advice here. Since the folks here include other platforms, I am going to join the crowd. My 5 shot group with my HK USP 9mm, single action, at 8 to 9 yards
And the sight pictures I used (not factory sights but Trijicon night sights)
And the sight pictures I used (not factory sights but Trijicon night sights)
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setxn
Member
With all variables considered,every firearm I own will put 1 round into 1 hole at any distance. No brag,just fact.
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