my "calculations" indicate....minimum distance = one mile give or take a few feet.....
How close is too close, for faster running threat animals?
- Thread starter richbuff
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my "calculations" indicate....minimum distance = one mile give or take a few feet.....
So when the animal is after you, you draw and fire without thinking about it - or calculating the distance or closing speed.
Got it
Point out the powder burns on the pelt.
Waaaay back when, maybe 60 years ago, I read a fascinating book (wish I could remember the title) by an African white hunter who guided wealthy clients on African trophy hunts, some for dangerous animals. He covered each really dangerous critter in great detail with many anecdotes based on his experiences on hunts with clients.
He said he never got over how many wealthy clients, with guns costing tens of thousands, arrived without having ever fired or zeroed the rifle they were going to use for the hunt.
He related how angry these guys were when he made them spend hours or even days firing their rifles in a base camp until they could get off two aimed shots and hit a bullseye at 100 yards in two seconds. The clients just could not understand why TWO shots so quickly, until he told them that if they winged a lion at 100 yards and didn't kill or cripple him, the now very angry lion would be on them in four seconds, bounding up and down all the way. He wanted a spare second or two for himself and his assistants to get off a life saving shot.
Sounds like 50-100 yards is when you should have a bead on the critter.
He said he never got over how many wealthy clients, with guns costing tens of thousands, arrived without having ever fired or zeroed the rifle they were going to use for the hunt.
He related how angry these guys were when he made them spend hours or even days firing their rifles in a base camp until they could get off two aimed shots and hit a bullseye at 100 yards in two seconds. The clients just could not understand why TWO shots so quickly, until he told them that if they winged a lion at 100 yards and didn't kill or cripple him, the now very angry lion would be on them in four seconds, bounding up and down all the way. He wanted a spare second or two for himself and his assistants to get off a life saving shot.
Sounds like 50-100 yards is when you should have a bead on the critter.
That's a misapplication of the Tueller drill. Which isn't a drill at all.
Dennis Tueller didn't pick 21 feet as a "you must be this close for lethal force to be justified" rule. When he began his work, a lot of attorneys would argue that a melee-armed attacker didn't represent an immediate mortal threat unless they were within melee range. So Tueller, and later Ayoob, began testing random folks to see how quickly a set distance could be covered from a standing start. That distance was 21 feet, and universally, the time is around 1.5 seconds, regardless of the surface or the physical condition of the person doing the running. Or "hurried ambling".
Now there was proof that an attacker, even starting 21 feet away, did represent an immediate threat. Ayoob even started cataloging the times of his students, so now he has a database of times with different types of footwear, different health conditions, etc. If you get attacked by an amputee or a retired coal miner, then yes, Mas can testify that both amputees and guys with black lung ran 7 yards in under 2 seconds.
Somewhere along the way, folks who never read the source material ("How Close Is Too Close?", SWAT magazine) or understood why it was developed, started spouting "21 feet" as some sort of magic number. Then they started telling other people, and bingo-bango, now a bunch of people think there's something special about the 7 yard line and being able to draw in two seconds.
So now you know what the Tueller drill really is, why it is, and how to apply it.
The answer to your question is: when you have to shoot. Or better yet, when you see an unrestrained, uncontrolled animal that could constitute a grave threat, it's time to start being somewhere else.
Dennis Tueller didn't pick 21 feet as a "you must be this close for lethal force to be justified" rule. When he began his work, a lot of attorneys would argue that a melee-armed attacker didn't represent an immediate mortal threat unless they were within melee range. So Tueller, and later Ayoob, began testing random folks to see how quickly a set distance could be covered from a standing start. That distance was 21 feet, and universally, the time is around 1.5 seconds, regardless of the surface or the physical condition of the person doing the running. Or "hurried ambling".
Now there was proof that an attacker, even starting 21 feet away, did represent an immediate threat. Ayoob even started cataloging the times of his students, so now he has a database of times with different types of footwear, different health conditions, etc. If you get attacked by an amputee or a retired coal miner, then yes, Mas can testify that both amputees and guys with black lung ran 7 yards in under 2 seconds.
Somewhere along the way, folks who never read the source material ("How Close Is Too Close?", SWAT magazine) or understood why it was developed, started spouting "21 feet" as some sort of magic number. Then they started telling other people, and bingo-bango, now a bunch of people think there's something special about the 7 yard line and being able to draw in two seconds.
So now you know what the Tueller drill really is, why it is, and how to apply it.
The answer to your question is: when you have to shoot. Or better yet, when you see an unrestrained, uncontrolled animal that could constitute a grave threat, it's time to start being somewhere else.
Here is a guy who describes what happened to him when an elephant charged him: Billionaire entrepreneur Tom Siebel tells how he survived an elephant attack - YouTube
Tom Siebel is an impressive guy. I have also listened to him in a podcast describe this experience as well. He states, with reason, I believe, that his PH was a coward.
Tom Siebel is an impressive guy. I have also listened to him in a podcast describe this experience as well. He states, with reason, I believe, that his PH was a coward.
bears are faster than pigs and this pig almost got them
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvQRvhEuBd4[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvQRvhEuBd4[/ame]
vonn
US Veteran
If I see them before they see me I am giving them plenty of respect and room and I believe most animals normally react the same. The problem occurs when you get into the animals “fight” space before they know you are there. If they are hungry and hunting you ,you are in real trouble. A good ambush will get you.
TomkinsSP
Member
To quote Merlin Perkins...
"I will wait in this armored car with the film crew, while Jim taunts the Lion."
"I will wait in this armored car with the film crew, while Jim taunts the Lion."
BearBio
Member
I had a 50 yard head start on a wild hog with piglets. Didn't want to shoot her, so I ran back to the truck. Dove into the bed just before she snapped at me.
Seen a bear run full tilt. My BIL thought it was a gigantic hog at first. In my collection, I have a video of a big grizzly running down a cow elk and killing her (for over 1/4 mile).
While researching bears for my thesis, I was charged by a large yearling bear=he was known for not having a sense of humor. He charged out of the chaparral about 60-70 yards away. Nowhere to go and unarmed, he reached me faster than I could have drawn a pistol. Got about 10 feet and he chickened out. Stop, swatted the ground a couple of times and ran off. I am an experienced wildlife biologist and an experienced shooter (55+ years)==No way I could've "emptied the magazine", even if the pistol was in my hand==you have time for ONE shot!
Records of almost 2000 attacks in and around National Parks in the US and Canada show that only one person using spray has been killed and 3% were mildly injured. About 40% of those who used guns were killed or seriously injured.
I have a friend/acquaintance who works with the Forest Service in Canada. He told me that most bear victims are found with rifles still on their shoulders and a round chambered.
When woods wandering, I rely on spray (backed up with a 454)
Seen a bear run full tilt. My BIL thought it was a gigantic hog at first. In my collection, I have a video of a big grizzly running down a cow elk and killing her (for over 1/4 mile).
While researching bears for my thesis, I was charged by a large yearling bear=he was known for not having a sense of humor. He charged out of the chaparral about 60-70 yards away. Nowhere to go and unarmed, he reached me faster than I could have drawn a pistol. Got about 10 feet and he chickened out. Stop, swatted the ground a couple of times and ran off. I am an experienced wildlife biologist and an experienced shooter (55+ years)==No way I could've "emptied the magazine", even if the pistol was in my hand==you have time for ONE shot!
Records of almost 2000 attacks in and around National Parks in the US and Canada show that only one person using spray has been killed and 3% were mildly injured. About 40% of those who used guns were killed or seriously injured.
I have a friend/acquaintance who works with the Forest Service in Canada. He told me that most bear victims are found with rifles still on their shoulders and a round chambered.
When woods wandering, I rely on spray (backed up with a 454)
keith44spl
Member
I've witnessed two black bear charges....
The first one was stopped at 'bout 60 feet by the hunter's second shot.
The second bear, I turned at spitting distance....
So my answer would be if a charge can not be avoided,
I'd say as quick as the front sight gets on the stopping spot.
.
The first one was stopped at 'bout 60 feet by the hunter's second shot.
The second bear, I turned at spitting distance....
So my answer would be if a charge can not be avoided,
I'd say as quick as the front sight gets on the stopping spot.
.
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keith44spl
Member
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ParadiseRoad
Member
...a video of a very young Mark Sullivan getting too close to a dead Cape Buffalo...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6to3R4BFXeg[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6to3R4BFXeg[/ame]
keith44spl
Member
Now that would get yur blood to pumpin' fur sur !!!
Oh, and heavy caliber double rifles are the ticket !!!!!!!!!!!
.
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Snakes - 1,000 yards. Minimum. 
Logic problem
If this happens to you, it will be your last mistake. Start shooting at 42 feet if you can hit the target. At 10-1/2 feet it won't make any difference. The animal's momentum will cause it's body to collide with yours.
If this happens to you, it will be your last mistake. Start shooting at 42 feet if you can hit the target. At 10-1/2 feet it won't make any difference. The animal's momentum will cause it's body to collide with yours.
This video is a little dated and not the best quality and some of you may have seen it before, but I think it is the most hair raising bear charge I've ever seen. That guide has nerves of steel.
Liveleak.com - Bear shot while charging hunter
Liveleak.com - Bear shot while charging hunter
A. Thank you for calling the National Parks Service. Your call is important to us. If you are being attacked by a dangerous animal, please stay on the line and the next available ranger will assist you.
B. Be armed and know how to use what you're carrying.
A or B? Hint: its a no-brainer.
B. Be armed and know how to use what you're carrying.
A or B? Hint: its a no-brainer.
Bajadoc
US Veteran
What caliber would be best?..............just kidding.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I think it was those kinds of stunts that made Sullivan persona non grata with the SCI
The following video is very poor quality, but is the most impressive charge I’ve ever seen on film. If you watch the slow-motion replay, you can see the bullet impacts on the lion’s forehead and almost simultaneously in its vitals as it piles into the hunter.
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f9D64GKHhBw[/ame]
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