How common is limp-wristing?

[modraker]

It seems like whenever a forum member has a shooting issue, someone inevitably suggests the possibility of limp-wristing. How common is this phenomenon among shooters? Who but the most novice of handgunners really holds their weapon that loosely?

I have seen videos on YouTube where people deliberately try to induce a jam by firing a pistol while holding it by just their thumb and forefinger. More often than not, they are unsuccessful.

 

[moxie]

I know that light loads out of a 1911 need a really good grip or the action might not function. I've seen advanced shooters do this.

 

[mbliss57]

I have never seen it. My wife is very dainty and shoots all my semi autos up to and including 1911s and 10mm S&Ws. She has never limp wristed any gun.
I have tried on several and it doesn't cause any FTFs.
A few years ago I bought a Ruger SR9C. It couldn't get through a magazine without several FTFs. I joined the Ruger forum to see if this was a common problem. 90% of the posters said I was limp wristing & or ammo sensitive. I tried different ammo.. no help. So against almost everyone on the forums advice I returned it to Ruger. When I got it back both my wife and I have put thousands of rounds through that pistol. I cannot ever remember a FTF/FTE problem since. They replaced the ejector and something else I can't remember off hand.
MY instincts were right. FTF/FTE problems are rare due to limp wristing unless it a a very sensitive pistol which I have yet to own. I am sure the above post about the Colt Commanders is accurate. There must be some that it applies to. But I have have never seen a S&W I could make fail through limp wristing. More myth than many know.

 

[OKFC05]

I see it a lot in my novice classes from people who don't have a clue how to hold a handgun. They squeeze the grip until their hands turn blue, but they don't provide a firm arm behind it for the gun to recoil against. I have seen people providing so little control that the M&P 22 would flip up to 45 degrees.

I have never seen an experienced shooter truly limp-wrist. Even when they hold the gun lightly with their fingers, the thumb behind the grip is still attached to an arm firmly locked as the experienced shooter always does.
The test of having the experienced shooter hold the gun lightly does NOT reproduce the problem the novice has.

So far, anyone who successfully completes Basic Pistol gets the idea to lock their arm and learns enough to go practice on the range without a coach.
However, there have been a few take the state mandated carry class who literally NEVER shot a gun before, and you can't always teach them what they need in an hour on a range with 10 people.

 

[DocSunShine]

limp wristing is an excuse fanboys make for guns that aren't running right. Without a doubt M&Ps can be defective like any and ever other handgun on the market whether it be Glock, H&K, Sig, Walther... They all have a certain percentage of bad apples. I don't think Smith puts out a significantly high number of lemons, but it happens.

Limp wristing is a lame excuse as every gun I've ever owned besides the Kahr I sold ran 100% including my attempts to intentionally "limp wrist" the gun.

 

[JohnK]

Almost everything, that happens in a REAL gunfight, tends to weaken the classic rigid grip.

Bad position, shooting around corners, shooting below line of sight, forced one handed grip..........

All these things cause a situation totally unlike a 195 pound State Trooper, solidly locked into position, qualifying at the range.

That semi-auto, HAS to have something to recoil AGAINST, or it will/can malfunction.

I too, have tried loosely holding a semi, and they will malfunction.

 

[Ed911]

It ain't just limp wrisitng. Light loads and light bullets can result in the same thing. For instance, one of my 9mm's is built to shoot best with 124 grain bullets. Using 115 grain bullets in concert with target loads can occasionally result in FTE's.

 

[kodiakpb]

There are other contributing factors such as loads, spring rates, etc that will affect ejection, but limp wristing is not necessarily having a loose grip. You can have a death grip on the gun and still "limp wrist". It's about managing recoil. Next time your at the range watch people shoot and pay attention to how the gun recoils. Watch the muzzle flip. There are a TON of people who don't manage recoil properly. It can be only a fraction of a second. Look and see how people are gripping the gun, who is readjusting their grip after each shot (because it is getting away from them), who doesn't have a high tang grip, who's elbows are pointed straight down at the ground, who's tea cupping, etc, etc. Those are all indicators of proficiency, if you know what you are looking for. So when someone new to shooting makes a post about their weapon throwing brass at their head...I do not make the assumption that the weapon is automatically the culprit, and they know what they're doing. The odds are that it's not, and they don't. Simple demographics is more in favor of novice/casual shooters...and guess where they go to find out what's wrong with their gun...the Internet. It's human nature to want to think they are doing everything right, especially if they have been shooting for "years". It's one of those things where "you don't know...what you don't know". Shooting for years does not equal a competent shooter. I'm not saying that there are not legitimate issues with some weapons...There are, it happens with any weapon manufacturer.

 

[hangnoose]

LIMPWRISTING

It's a bigger issue in places like San Francisco. seriously, I sold my 1911's due to ftf/fte issues from bad hands & wrist splints not able to work the grip safety, possibly limpwristing also. no problems with 3 diff sigs.

 

[RV4driver]

It can be more of a problem with some of the new "super-light" 9mm's and .380's. Absent the mass of a substantial frame, your grip will need to provide the essential resistance to recoil to achieve the force to cycle the action. As said before, a semi-auto needs the slide to operate relative to the frame, for the gun to actually function. If the complete gun recoils in concert, as opposed to recoiling relative to the frame, the handgun will not operate as designed. Granted, it usually doesn't take much resistance to recoil, but it does require some resistance so the slide operates relative to the frame, or FTE and other maladies will result. All opinion aside, physics will demand a certain set of circumstances to achieve the desired result.

 

[RobzGuns]

I've mostly seen Recoil Control Issues (aka: Limpwristing) with people unfamiliar with lightweight subcompacts like the Nano, DB9, my PF-9 and other 3" barreled pistols under 18oz., resulting in multiple FTEs. Once I've mentioned modifying their grip and locking the support hand, amazingly, the FTEs disappeared every single time.
Imagine that!

This hasn't been limited to new shooters, either. I've seen a few Career Military and cops that "never had a problem with their duty pistol" have initial problems with my PF-9, saying it was trash, until they modified their grip. Heavy Full-Size pistols sometimes hide lax technique.

"Fanboy Excuse" indeed.

 

[jstanfield103]

I agree with what Doc say's, I have never had a gun fault due limp wrist. I have never seen it. If it does I would figure the gun has a problem

 

[Rastoff]

The test of having the experienced shooter hold the gun lightly does NOT reproduce the problem the novice has.

This was obviously written by an experienced and intelligent instructor. Well said OKFC05.

Limp wristing isn't an excuse for "fan boys" and it isn't a myth; it's real. However, it's not simple either. While I'm sure many have never had any trouble with their guns, you're only one person. I've seen it happen many times with many shooters. For me it most commonly has happened with Glock sub compacts. But, that doesn't mean other guns are immune.

The idea of limp wristing is really unintentional softening of the recoil. What is happening is the shooter is hitting a sweet spot where the gun is not in optimum performance. A gun might shoot fine with a good solid grip and with no resistance at all. Then get a person to lighten the resistance just a little and you get a malfunction.

Fist it must be diagnosed properly. This can only be done with at least two shooters. If the gun works fine with one shooter and malfunctions with another, the problem must be with that one shooter. I had a S&W 4506 and put thousands of rounds through it with no problems. I let a friend shoot it and he had at least 5 type II malfunctions within two magazines. That's not a gun problem.

Here's what I do. If I have a student that has multiple type II malfunctions, I'll take a few shots with their gun. If the gun does it for me as well, I'll say the gun is malfunctioning. If it doesn't malfunction for me, I'll work with the student's grip. So far, I've been able to solve every "limp wrist" problem by correcting grip. There have been a few guns that were truly malfunctioning as well.

It's real. It must be diagnosed properly. It can be fixed.

 

[Dmartin]

I had never shot a pistol before I bought a 9 mm Pro about 2 years ago. I had stove pipe failures on every magazine in the first week of use until I finally figured out I wasn't gripping the pistol correctly and providing enough resistance for the recoil. I firmed up and changed my grip and haven't had a single failure since with over 3,000 rounds.

My wife had a few failures when she got her M&P and 1 minute of instruction solved the problem. She also hasn't had a failure since the first day.

 

[RussC]

I held my Shield as loose as possible and could not jam the weapon.

I owned a Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano and gripped white knuckle tight with both hands using same ammo as Shield and both would jam regularly.

Based on my experience limp wrist is not a factor when it comes to jams.

Russ

 

[RobzGuns]

I owned a Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano and gripped white knuckle tight with both hands using same ammo as Shield and both would jam regularly.

You're confusing a Death Grip with Locking the Wrists.
Referring back to Rastoff's and my earlier replies, did everyone who shot your CM9 and/or Nano experience the same problems? I've helped Nano owners, who thought they'd bought a junk pistol get better results, by adjusting their technique.The Nano (7.5ft=lbs) and CM9 (8.3ft-lbs) both have harsher recoil than the Shield (7.0ft-lbs) and it can be readily felt. This MAY be why the Shield works so much better for you.

Could it simply have been your bad luck to get 2 lemons? Perhaps, but... Just because they jammed for you, it does not prove that they were bad pistols. It simply means they were the wrong pistols for you.

My PF-9 has 8.9ft-lbs of recoil, which is why so many people initially have so much recoil control (LW) issues with it, until they modify their technique. While I get 0 malfunctions with it, many who try it can't get through an entire mag until they modify their technique.

This is exactly why someone should not buy a pistol solely by how good they feel in the hand at the gun counter. People need to rent/borrow/shoot the type of pistol they're considering, before putting their money on the counter. You don't need to know ft-lbs of force to be able to feel how it shoots in your hands.

The PF-9 was my Flawless EDC until I found the Shield.
While I could manage the PF-9's recoil, it's a chore for me to shoot more than 30 rounds with it at a time. Same goes for the Nano, XD-S, PM9 and CM9.
I figure why should I NEED to 'deal' with the PF-9's recoil, when the Shield is so much nicer to shoot (I can shoot the Shield all day)?

The thing is, LW is not a myth... Especially when it comes to Small, Lightweight Subcompacts. There are numbers to back up the real world recoil control issues. And... It doesn't matter to how much of a Death Grip one puts on the pistol.

 

[Fastbolt]

Grip stability/technique issues ("limp-wristing") isn't an unknown problem among firearms instructors and armorers.

I have a fair number of different armorer manuals out at my bench, from different manufacturers, and "grip" issues are a commonly listed probable cause of extraction/ejection & feeding stoppages.

Not supporting the frame (and thence the gun's functioning during unlocking/cycling/locking) can create problems.

So, too, however, can low (or over) powered ammunition, as well as defective, worn-out, damaged or over-powered recoil springs.

Then there's dry guns ... and even worse, dirty & dry guns.

Don't forget excessively lubricated guns, though, with their accumulating sludge, grit, fouling, etc.

Now, the fun really starts when you start to combine varying degrees of all these issues in any particular combination of gun, shooter & ammo.

"limp-wristing"? Sure, it can happen, but ...

While some folks can't seem to grip the gun properly enough to prevent it from happening, there's other folks who can't get it to happen no matter hard they try to make it happen.

Depends.

I've watched ordinary qual sessions, along with T&E of different pistols, where a particular pistol & case of ammo runs fine in the hands of one shooter, but exhibited obvious grip related stoppages in the hands of another shooter ... but that shooter only had that sort of grip stability issue occur with one make/model/caliber, not others.

 

[Tommytom092971]

Limp wrsting is usually caused from not properly holding the gun. It also happens more often with polymer frames. I recently took my daughter shooting for the first time and all the brass ejected at her head and she had a fte. I have never had a fte and when I shoot, and all the brass ejects out to the side as it should. So there has to be something to limp wristing

 

[loc n load]

Limp wrists

I have instructed firearms for 40 years, citizens and LEO's and have seen this manifest itself many times with different pistol platforms.....after the safety lectures, grip is the first foundation skill that I teach.....and this most definitely includes locking the wrist to run the gun..... there are other variables as well....loads, lack of lube, etc.......one of my memorable incidents was with a husband/wife team (b-4 I starting separating them on the range).....they both were shooting the same Walther PPKS 380....the husband was experiencing FTF's every other round, the wife could run the little pistol like a machine gun......this was infuriating the husband who was condemning the gun "being a piece of ----". Then the wife would load it up and it would run faultlessly. I kept telling him that he was "breaking his wrists".....and he was getting hot, insisting that he was not.....then she would load it, sight & rip off a mag w/o a burp.
"breaking the wrists" and "anticipating the shot" ( flinching) have always been and will always be problems for those of us who teach other's to shoot. Both have to be approached carefully so as not to "threaten man card's", especially in front of their spouses or significant other's. Most women shooter's I have instructed were "blank slates" and listened to what I told them, and did it.

 

[Jyezahn]

limp wristing is an excuse fanboys make for guns that aren't running right. Without a doubt M&Ps can be defective like any and ever other handgun on the market whether it be Glock, H&K, Sig, Walther... They all have a certain percentage of bad apples. I don't think Smith puts out a significantly high number of lemons, but it happens.

Limp wristing is a lame excuse as every gun I've ever owned besides the Kahr I sold ran 100% including my attempts to intentionally "limp wrist" the gun.

Not an excuse, not a fanboy issue. This link will show many different limp wrist tests with Glocks. You can search and find almost any brand tested with limp wristing (because brand does not matter at all).

Glock Limp Wristing