How fit cylinder hand/fix timing...?

[Silverbullit]

Howdy mates,

I got a revolver that times ridiciously close to when the hammer falls.

What is the proper fix here, do I need to fit a new hand?
If so, I need a walkthrough for dummies.

Also one chamber times different than it's siblings,
do I need a new star? Are they drop-in fit these days?

I written S&W about these issues, but as a Swede it seems my only option is to do any and all repairs on my competition irons myself.
Thus I turn to you learned friends in this forum...

Any and all help here would be greatly appreciated mates!

/Silverbullit

 

[tennexplorer]

How old is the revolver? Yes, you do need a new hand. Hands come in two sizes standard and oversize. However they vary in width. See if you can get a set of calipers and measure the width. Then let us know. Stars are not a drop in fit.

 

[GregG]

I don't have any experience with the S&W factory oversize hands, but I have installed two Power Custom ones in N frame guns.

What I did on this last one was thin the hand, using a diamond stone, and measuring with a micrometer to keep the thickness consistent with no taper, until it just fit into the window, then I went .001" thinner for reliability. It ended up several thousandths wider than the factory hand. I can't remember off hand, but I think it was .003" wider.

All of the cylinders carried up well after the install, and a couple of lugs actually had to be touched up gently with a file because they were binding (carrying up too far).

The instructions that come with the Power Custom hand are pretty good, and I think there is some good info posted by 500 Magnum Nut (sp?) in the smithing section.

Good luck and let us know how it does.

BTW, I recently obtained an N frame that didn't carry up as well as factory. I decided to send it back to S&W for a factory repair, as this gun is worth a little money, and I wanted the service done by the factory. I did a thorough cleaning on the gun as not to be rude and send a dirty gun to S&W.

It turned out that the interior of the mechanism was carbon fouled and needed a good cleaning. Keep that in mind.

 

[rere]

How does it run? If it's not broke, don't fix it.

 

[Silverbullit]

How old is the revolver? Yes, you do need a new hand. Hands come in two sizes standard and oversize. However they vary in width. See if you can get a set of calipers and measure the width. Then let us know. Stars are not a drop in fit.

Say about 5 weeks, give or take...
(I did not discover the problems to the full extents until now as I have not really tried it being down with the magnificent combo of pneumonia, ulcer and slipped disk/spinal hernia. Hope that is the correct translations)

Pity stars arent drop in fit, one less backup option then.

Thanks for the reply mate, greatly appreciated!

 

[Silverbullit]

I don't have any experience with the S&W factory oversize hands, but I have installed two Power Custom ones in N frame guns.

What I did on this last one was thin the hand, using a diamond stone, and measuring with a micrometer to keep the thickness consistent with no taper, until it just fit into the window, then I went .001" thinner for reliability. It ended up several thousandths wider than the factory hand. I can't remember off hand, but I think it was .003" wider.

All of the cylinders carried up well after the install, and a couple of lugs actually had to be touched up gently with a file because they were binding (carrying up too far).

The instructions that come with the Power Custom hand are pretty good, and I think there is some good info posted by 500 Magnum Nut (sp?) in the smithing section.

Good luck and let us know how it does.

BTW, I recently obtained an N frame that didn't carry up as well as factory. I decided to send it back to S&W for a factory repair, as this gun is worth a little money, and I wanted the service done by the factory. I did a thorough cleaning on the gun as not to be rude and send a dirty gun to S&W.

It turned out that the interior of the mechanism was carbon fouled and needed a good cleaning. Keep that in mind.

This is also an N frame, it is a 625 Performance Center.
(Internal parts was a joke in this particular revolver, had a similar problem with a brand new 357 performance center and I had to pay for the internal parts. Although when I later posted pics of that one in the S&W forums I got great support and a very nice replacement

Anyways, we can rule out dirty internals, problem lies in the mechanics.

Very useful nfo,
I will look in to those suggestions mate!

Thanks!

/Silverbullit

 

[Silverbullit]

How does it run? If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Well mate, I wish I did not have to fix a brand new PC at all.
My reasons are simply that I need a revolver that runs like clockwork, I am limited to average 2000 rounds live ammo practice due to economics, but still any amount of practice cant push me through an inferior competition equipment.
The funky timing/internal parts really messes with my averages, a LOT!

(Difference between my 357/686 and .45acp/625 in PPC are from 1460 down to about 1400,
even target shooting suffers from the gritty internals, at range target 25meters diff +48 with my 357, and with the new 625... maybe 44, so to say not so good would be an understatement.)
I need it to time consistently first, then get new trigger/hammer cause the provided internals are actually the worst I have ever come across, ever!

Luckily I have you skilled and knowledge mates here to ask my questions,
your feedback is golden!

So again, thanks mates!

/Silverbullit

 

[Fastbolt]

Are you checking the carry up by using properly sized dummy rounds or empty cases in your revolver?

In the new style revolvers the extractors are not pinned, and they use the cases to index the extractor in relation to the charge holes for proper carry up (or 'timing', if you will). If you check the 'timing' without dummy rounds or empty cases you aren't really getting the same result.

Extractors are not drop-in parts, but are cut with a factory cutting hand & arm for each frame & cylinder.

Replacing a hand with an oversize hand can sometimes result in a long ratchet condition and may require some judicious filing/fitting. Or, it might not work at all if it's too much thicker and binds. Filing the frame window is best done by someone who understands what's involved and can determine whether it's the prudent course of action for repair. The frame is the expensive part, after all.

 

[GregG]

The Power Custom hands are too long intentionally, and need a slight amount ground off of the tip, so that the hand doesn't start to rotate the cylinder until the cylinder stop has disengaged.

 

[Silverbullit]

Are you checking the carry up by using properly sized dummy rounds or empty cases in your revolver?

In the new style revolvers the extractors are not pinned, and they use the cases to index the extractor in relation to the charge holes for proper carry up (or 'timing', if you will). If you check the 'timing' without dummy rounds or empty cases you aren't really getting the same result.

Extractors are not drop-in parts, but are cut with a factory cutting hand & arm for each frame & cylinder.

Replacing a hand with an oversize hand can sometimes result in a long ratchet condition and may require some judicious filing/fitting. Or, it might not work at all if it's too much thicker and binds. Filing the frame window is best done by someone who understands what's involved and can determine whether it's the prudent course of action for repair. The frame is the expensive part, after all.

Speaking of dummy rounds I did not quite get that,
are you saying that the hand somehow relates to the brass?

(The timing feels identical with or without any empty brass/dummy rounds to me)

I conclude I need to read up a lot on the subject...

/Silverbullit

 

[Silverbullit]

The Power Custom hands are too long intentionally, and need a slight amount ground off of the tip, so that the hand doesn't start to rotate the cylinder until the cylinder stop has disengaged.

I will look in to the power custom,
hopefully it will clear the late timing.
A pity tho is, if I figure this correctly, is that the shorter timing on one chamber will stay the same.

Got me some work on this one mates...

/Silverbullit

 

[robertrwalsh]

The hand does not relate to the brass. The exact position of the extractor/ratchet does relate to the brass. It can "wiggle" if the cylinders are empty, just enough to throw things off.

 

[Fastbolt]

The hand does not "relate" to brass.

The extractor, however, does in the new style S&W revolvers. Proper carry up (timing) is checked with properly sized dummy rounds (or empty cases) in the charge holes so the extractor is supported as it would be when live ammunition is being fired in the gun.

In the new style S&W revolvers the extractor indexes off the brass cases in the charge holes in same manner as the older extractor used to index off the 2 pins. The cases now position the extractor for carry up. If no dummy rounds or cases are in the charge holes, the extractor can wiggle. I didn't design the new style guns, but I paid very close attention during the armorer class so I would be able to cut a new extractor sometime, if needed (and I've done so outside the class). The cutting arm & hand is sold to armorers (and is made at the factory).

The cutting arm is a steel bar welded to a trigger, onto which a cutting hand (and spring, of course) is installed. I have come across a couple of the newer cutting arms which had weld seams raised to that they prevented complete movement of the arm and the condition had to be corrected by filing, but that's another story.

When a new extractor is cut it's done with dummy rounds in the charge holes to position the extractor so the ratchets can be cut in relation to the hand to provide for proper carry up when ammunition is in the charge holes. Any minor adjustments needed (such as in the case of a long ratchet) are done with a Nicholson 4” Barrett #1 file.

An oversize hand isn't always the best answer to a "does not carry up" condition. A gunsmith, factory tech (or a S&W revolver armorer) can examine any particular revolver and decide which is the best choice when it comes to correction & repair. In the revolver armorer class we were taught to cut a new extractor and then check for carry up, making sure no long ratchet condition existed. (I dislike having to file on the frame's hand window if at all possible, which can sometimes be needed with oversize hands. One too many file strokes, or file the wrong side, and the frame may be ruined. Not good.)

In the last revolver for which I cut a new extractor (mine), I first tried to correct a carry up problem (involving 1 charge hole) using the first step up oversized hand. I'd received 2 new oversize hands from the factory as repair parts. I had a very experienced revolver armorer of more than 30 years experience assisting me and monitoring the repair. (My armorer experience is primarily for various pistols and the AR, with only a single S&W revolver armorer class under my belt, and I'm not too proud to ask for help ... especially when it's my gun. )

The first oversize hand almost resolved the condition. Almost. The next step up created a problem of a different sort and I was not willing to file on the frame window. Not when there was an easier way.

Cutting a new extractor, using the original hand (you don't cut a new extractor with an oversize hand in the gun), resolved my problem perfectly.

Got a S&W warranty service station/gunsmith facility over in your part of the world? This link should take you to a list of the current European Warranty stations:
Warranty Stations - Smith & Wesson

 

[N Framer]

Just a quick question along this topic, The Midway video on You Tube showing the fitting of the Power Custom oversize hand mentions stoning the surface but does not really show where to stone. I read the instructions but did not find it real informative. Does anyone have advice before I start this project? This is for a M-29 no-dash that does not carry up fully. I will only stone the new hand. Will not touch anything else. Thanks.

 

[longaction]

N: You can fix it yourself. Get a copy of the "3rd Edition Gunsmithing Pistols & Revolvers" by Patrick Sweeney. On pages 221 - 223 he tells/shows you how. I hate to say it but the bigger hammer theory apparently works in this case.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

On the old extractors (guns) you can't get a new one so the field repair to correct carry up is to change the hand to an over sized one.

Many guns the hand window is cut too wide and this is what hurts the carry up. Ideally, the window should be no more than .001 wider than the hand. The windows seldom wear, the ratchets are soft and wear. The hands are hardened so they resist wear. The tips of the hand will wear in time.

When fitting a oversized hand, and if your lucky the slot it make right, you need to purchase a window file. The file is a safe file which means the bottom and top of the file doesn't cut.

If the new hand doesn't fit, you take a window file and file the LH side (side of cylinder release) just enough to get the hand to fit. The tighter the better, as long as the hand doesn't bind.

When you stone the hand, you don't stone the sides down (this will defeat the purpose of fitting a oversized one) you stone to break any sharp edges and you lightly put a radius on the point so the new hand doesn't dig into the lugs.

When dealing with new guns, S&W will sell you extractors, so this gives you more options on what to replace.

There is a way to peen the lugs using a flat punch and striking straight down to widen them, can help prevent replacing the extractors. Peening the lugs should be your last shot before extractor replacement. The lugs are quite soft and if peening is not done correctly or if you strike too hard, the lugs can sheer off. Now the only course of action is to send it back so S&W to fit a new extractor in the gun.

 

[davidk29]

GregG,

I read that you had installed a Power Custom's oversized hand. As compared to the factory hand, which is triangular in shape, the tip of the oversized hand is rectangular.

I really need to find some information about the relationship between the ratchet and the hand. The Power Custom's information confuses the heck out of me. I really want to learn this stuff.

Can you lead me to a good source of info? Yes, I've already read Jerry Kuhnhausen's revolver book and a book called Gunsmithing Pistols and Revolvers.

David K.