How important do YOU think training is?

[Protected One]

Yes, but your premise is that, based on a report of someone without training successfully defending themselves, training is a waste of time and money. The ends justifies the means.

I didn't say (or imply) that training is a waste of time and money, nor do I believe that. If I did, why would I have a line item in my budget for it?

What I was trying to convey is that based upon the situation (specifically: HOME INVASION) it is not always NECESSARY.
Necessary and helpfull have two entirelly different meanings.
Training can be helpful, but has been proven not to be always necessary.

On a related issue: Wonder how many here who include a folding knife in their edc, have taken the time to get any training in its proper use? Hmmm.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

No one is, at least I'm not, suggesting that training is the answer to everything, that if you get training you'll always hit the target. Nothing could be further from the truth. All I'm saying is that training, quality training, will increase a person's probability of survival.

Right. And even those who choose no formal training would likely agree with that.

The divergence of opinion is whether or not the time and money invested in training and ongoing practice is a worthwhile investment in betterment of this undefined probability rate, and considering the incredibly low probability of ever needing to shoot someone in self defense anyway. As WayWatcher succinctly put it... we're talking about a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a maybe. While that might be compelling enough for us gun enthusiasts who really don't need a reason to go to the range other than good weather, it's not all that convincing to average Joe. As mentioned earlier, 90% of adults in Tennessee don't even consider a carry permit worthwhile.

 

[JJEH]

Well come on, let's don't be petty here. We are talking probabilities here and maybe and perhaps...

Bottom line is that training is good and important. More important is what you make out of it.

How often do you encounter people that hold a M.D. but you wonder how they got it? Well they have it, but that doesn't mean they are good at it. Same applies here.

Now everyone bring it in... firepower on 3!

 

[adams484]

I just have to throw my two cents in on this. Handling a firearm and using it are two different things. The hunter who put a deer slug through my sister inlaw's garage a foot away from her comes to mind. The need to teach muzzle direction awareness to first time shooters on the range comes to mind as well. Yes I agree it ain't rocket science but would you want someone who has never driven a car before traveling at 65 in Atlanta or Denver on the interstate with you in the next lane? No we don't need special training to purchase a gun for protection but without it I pray they don't have to use it. Common sense is all that is required but common sense often leaves us when we are stressed. Add a dangerous device whether it be a gun, car, power tool without some basic instruction is not smart. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you are no supposed to cut you fingers off on a table saw but people still do it. Safety is learned not innate.

And remember not all people who buy firearms had a father teach them not to shoot things you don't want to shoot. We as a community should be out there helping those new to firearms as much as possible so the dam government will stay out of it.

 

[adams484]

Everyone seems focused on whether a person without training can defend themselves with a firearm. Sure they can but think about this scenario:

Like in the video a women buys a handgun and her ex boyfriend gets out of prison shows up on her doorstep with an attitude. She pulls the gun and he laughs. She then fires at him several times as he tries to force his way in. He realizes she means it and runs. In the mean time the neighbor's child is across the street with a serious gun shot wound. Would training have helped in that situation? Hard to say but it might have.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

The post above brings up the excellent point that training and/or experience are as important to the safely of innocents as to the protection of you & your family.

I wouldn't want to be responsible for the shooting of a neighbor sitting in their own home while trying to prevent harm from a BG in mine.

The person with, and let's use "Education" as opposed to training, NO education who buys a firearm and learns enough at the store to load and fire the weapon, will very possibly have ZERO idea that the .38 Special or 9mm round they just shot at the BG in their doorway can zip through him (if they hit) or the door or frame wall if they miss and punch a hole right through their neighbor's wall across the hallway of their apartment building OR though their neighbor's wall in the closely adjoining house next door OR even through the not closely adjoining house 100 feet away.

 

[Rastoff]

On a related issue: Wonder how many here who include a folding knife in their edc, have taken the time to get any training in its proper use? Hmmm.

This really opens the rabbit hole up wide. Since you mentioned it, I'm going to throw out my stance on knives; they are completely different than guns.

I agree with you that training is not necessary, but a good idea, to use a gun in self-defense. A knife however, is completely different. In the case of a knife, I believe that training and continuous practice is essential to be able to defend yourself with it.

You see, a gun is a ranged tool. With it distance between the defender and the bad guy can be maintained. A knife is an up close and personal tool. Get in a knife fight and you will be cut. The only question is, how bad? Will it be a gash that can be sewn up by a doc or will it be a mortal wound? Ask any professional who teaches knife fighting and they will agree. If you find a knife fighting instructor who says different, run from them.

Oh yeah, it doesn't matter if you are the attacker or the defender, you're getting cut. I don't know the exact numbers, but they are high. Something like 98% of those who attack/defend with a knife cut themselves in the process and not just a nick.


A knife does have some intimidation value, but not nearly as much as a gun. Some will say that a knife can be used as a ranged tool as well. Yeah, I guess you could throw it, but the chances it will hit with the point are small and the chances it will stop the bad guy are even smaller. Then, once thrown, you have no knife.

I always carry a knife, but would not use it as a defensive tool. A stick that I sharpened with my knife would be better.

 

[Mike Grasso]

Never bring a knife to a gunfight


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[Protected One]

Never bring a knife to a gunfight


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I would! It would be a backup to my backup gun....but I would definitely bring it.

 

[Protected One]

This really opens the rabbit hole up wide. Since you mentioned it, I'm going to throw out my stance on knives; they are completely different than guns.

I agree with you that training is not necessary, but a good idea, to use a gun in self-defense. A knife however, is completely different. In the case of a knife, I believe that training and continuous practice is essential to be able to defend yourself with it.

You see, a gun is a ranged tool. With it distance between the defender and the bad guy can be maintained. A knife is an up close and personal tool. Get in a knife fight and you will be cut. The only question is, how bad? Will it be a gash that can be sewn up by a doc or will it be a mortal wound? Ask any professional who teaches knife fighting and they will agree. If you find a knife fighting instructor who says different, run from them.

Oh yeah, it doesn't matter if you are the attacker or the defender, you're getting cut. I don't know the exact numbers, but they are high. Something like 98% of those who attack/defend with a knife cut themselves in the process and not just a nick.


A knife does have some intimidation value, but not nearly as much as a gun. Some will say that a knife can be used as a ranged tool as well. Yeah, I guess you could throw it, but the chances it will hit with the point are small and the chances it will stop the bad guy are even smaller. Then, once thrown, you have no knife.

I always carry a knife, but would not use it as a defensive tool. A stick that I sharpened with my knife would be better.

I'm in agreement with all that you said here. Also, there was a time when I carried three throwing knives on my person - and could accurately deliver them on target. But, though I still have the knives their place has been taken by my trusty handgun. They now sit in my desk drawer.

 

[Protected One]

I'm not sure that being afraid is the overriding issue, but rather most folks don't think it's worthwhile.

In Tennessee only about 10% of adults have a carry permit. So right there tells you that few people even think carrying a gun is worthwhile. Of those with carry permits, I'd be surprised if half carry much of the time, and just a very small fraction carry all the time. Few who carry will ever need to shoot anyone in self defense during their entire lifetime. It's no surprise that formal trainng is a hard sell to average Joe.

I suppose there are some who are reluctant to seek training for the same reason that some are reluctant to ask for directions even when they are lost. Embarrassment, pride, and maybe fear plays a part... But I think most just don't think it's worthwhile, and right or wrong believe they will be up the task in the unlikely event of a SD situation requiring use of a gun at home or while carrying. And if Kleck's numbers are anywhere close to being real, I guess more often than not it works out ok.

I agree with you. Lets face it; most people have "limited resources financially", and therefore have to decide (based on importance) how to prioritize its use. Though the average person may not be able to tell you specific numbers on how likely they are to have to actually use their gun, they probably realize the odds are against it. This makes spending money (and time) to become proficient in its use much less of a priority than most other things competing for their resources.

I don't doubt there are those who chose to protect their "illusion of shooting skill", but I suspect that they are VERY few in number - compared to all gun owners.

 

[chuckster57]

JMO, but I think practice is more important than training. Training is good, don't get me wrong but unless you practice on a regular basis it's not going to help in an emergency situation.

Regular practice makes you comfortable with your learned responses, and you will find yourself "defaulting" to that learned behavior with enough practice. 25+ years of shoot 6, reload from a speed loader, shoot six, reload and holster is a hard habit to break.

 

[Protected One]

JMO, but I think practice is more important than training. Training is good, don't get me wrong but unless you practice on a regular basis it's not going to help in an emergency situation.

Regular practice makes you comfortable with your learned responses, and you will find yourself "defaulting" to that learned behavior with enough practice. 25+ years of shoot 6, reload from a speed loader, shoot six, reload and holster is a hard habit to break.

Agreed. But first, one must learn WHAT & HOW to practice. That's where training come in.
I see it all the time in golf. Someone buys a get of clubs, goes to the driving range and starts swinging. They manage to get the feel for how to make contact with the ball, but, (lacking training) can't control where they put their shots. If they finally seek instruction they must first be "untaught" all the wrong habits they have grooved into their swing. Practice DOES NOT MAKE PERFECT - it makes "permanent". PROPER practice makes perfect.

 

[chuckster57]

"what and how".... Yup, you got me there.

 

[Rastoff]

That's exactly right. Without training, how do you know what or how to practice?

Practice is a powerful tool. What you do in practice is really what you'll do on the street.

I learned a gun take away technique from a detective who worked in Thousand Oaks, CA. He told us this story:
An off duty cop, who had learned this technique, was in a convenient store one night. A robber came in and pointed a gun at the clerk. The off duty cop used the technique to take the gun away from the robber. AND THEN HANDED THE GUN BACK TO THE ROBBER!!! The cop took the gun away again, but got shot in the process the second time. He lived and the bad guy went to jail.

Yep, when they practiced the technique, they would hand it back to their partner after taking the practice gun away so they could do it again. Needless to say, they changed their training practice. Now they toss the gun away and go pick it up rather than hand it back.

Practice the wrong way and all you'll do is re-enforce bad habits. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[adams484]

Time is sometimes an issue with training as well...

I agree with you. Lets face it; most people have "limited resources financially", and therefore have to decide (based on importance) how to prioritize its use. Though the average person may not be able to tell you specific numbers on how likely they are to have to actually use their gun, they probably realize the odds are against it. This makes spending money (and time) to become proficient in its use much less of a priority than most other things competing for their resources.

I don't doubt there are those who chose to protect their "illusion of shooting skill", but I suspect that they are VERY few in number - compared to all gun owners.

If I had the time I could see it being interesting to to take some training to see if the years of shooting have given me some bad habits to shake but time is short for me. Plus after seeing some of the ridiculous idiots on YouTube doing their silly choreography dances and other rituals I fear I would have to travel a ways to find someone who could show me what I haven't already figured out. I paid a $100 dollars for a ski lesson once only to be told all I needed to get any better then I already was is to put more miles under my ski's. That stuck with me as it basically said once you get the fundamentals down it's all practice from there.

Besides I know from hunting experience that all the practice in the world does not help as much as the confidence from experience of the actual thing. If it comes to when I need to draw for self defense I will needing a change of drawers afterward no matter how much training. Ask a vet who has been in real combat. They will say the training helps but the real thing teaches the hardest lessons.