How is over clocked barrel made right?

[Adk.IBO]

I purchased a 649-3 and the barrel is over clocked (tightened to much?) by 2-3 degrees (guessing w/o a protractor maybe more). It's noticeable looking at the front of the gun. I have not shot it yet, but if it needs to be fixed what are the options? The decision to buy this gun may not have been a good one, but now it's time to make the decision right. I appreciate advice on this. I can't peddle it without full disclosure (don't really want to anyway). Send it to S&W? Find a good gunsmith? Buy the tools and do it myself? New barrel? Does a new barrel fix it? Some kind of washer or bushing? Help please!

Stay safe, John

 

[gunnails]

Call S&W, I'm told they are very good about taking care of issues like this.

 

[Adk.IBO]

Good to hear, thank you! 2nds anyone? (No offense gunnails)

Stay safe, John

 

[garbler]

That's unfortunate as the consequences are often costly. As a rule of thumb setting up a new barrel you want initial contact then about 7 degrees of draw to align. Funny as it sounds a competent gunsmith with a lathe has no problem but the factory screws this up all the time. Ron Power is pretty adamant about fitting up barrels the right way which means being a good lathe operator. But I've also heard some say blued ordinance steel guns can be more forgiving while stainless being softer is more likely to come lose if you back up to align.

So the fix is to remove and set the barrel shoulder back on the lathe and do it again which entails cutting back the extension and setting the gap again. Then there are the types who will Loctite the threads and let the next guy suffer. In fact Lew Hortons mountain guns are reportedly all set up with epoxy thread locker which is so hard you'll bend your frame trying to pull a barrel

Good luck

 

[Bobbysixkiller]

I'd call S&W. They will fix it. For the most part I think they have very good service

 

[k22fan]

Shoot it. If it shoots to point of aim forget about it. S&W's production methods have always allowed revolvers with slight but visible barrel clocking misalignment. More than likely it is within tolerance and will shoot just fine.

 

[garbler]

To each his own but I for one can't stand for one minute holding a revolver with a barrel out of alignment with the top strap. If it shoots to somebody else's satisfaction fine but I got this thing about sights lining up too. If it ain't right I don't want it and having a factory telling me it's close enough or within their " marketing tolerance " makes me wonder what else is adrift inside. A crooked mis-aligned barrel is something everybody can see quite easily so you would think a factory would want this aspect of assembly done right ?

I also would love to see any proof that S&W, Ruger Colt or any factory has in house assembly specs and procedures that state a certain amount of misalignment is okay. I suspect the source of this claim is a customer service rep trying to assuage an unhappy customer.

 

[WR Moore]

Depending upon how much barrel/frame contact surface there is (and the degree of misalignment), loosening the barrel and realignment may be possible. J-frames don't have much contact surface. They also don't have a very robust frame in the threaded boss.

Trust me, you don't want to buy the tools to do this right. You'd be a substantial way to a new gun. It's also real easy to crack a J-frame at the threaded boss. Add a new frame to the tools and you've equalled or surpassed a new gun.

If you bought the gun new, the factory is your best friend here and the price is right (phone call).

On the other hand, if it shoots to the sights, is a couple of degrees really an issue? If the misalignment is really slight, what the factory might do is whack the sight with a lead bar to bend it straight. (I know you really didn't want to read that, but there's a lot of gunsmithing stuff you probably don't want to know.)

 

[garbler]

I'm going to back up here a taste and agree with WR Moore in theory. Mostly cause I was too damn stupid to read the OP's post carefully enough to to notice it's a J frame. That fact alone changes the inherent accuracy to some degree as you will not get the degree of accuracy with this small frame as you would a K frame. It also means the frame is very delicate as Moore states and much more likely to be damaged in the wrong hands. However it is also more likely to shoot loose if you back it up.

2-3 degrees is quite a bit on a bigger frame and barrel and a good indication that the factory or somebody had no idea what they were doing or something went wrong. 2-3 degrees may well be workable on this small frame however . I really can't say honestly that it won't be. And honestly I hate working on J frames and rarely do or did. Too small, too delicate too different.

Snugging a barrel shoulder up and torquing it another 7 degrees ( roughly a 1/4" on K L barrels ) as is recommended leaves the mechanic plenty of room to sneak up on the mark so to speak. Going beyond usually indicates an operator error on the lathe, flaw in the frame or similar defects. In the end correction is not easy since this kind of problem involves machining to do it right. Not too big a job for a good smith with a lathe but most don't like working on these small frames for the reasons pointed out. At 21 feet the accepted training distance for law enforcement you should be able to train to proficiency with not sights anyway.

Good luck and sorry for the confusion

 

[k22fan]

[...] I also would love to see any proof that S&W, Ruger Colt or any factory has in house assembly specs and procedures that state a certain amount of misalignment is okay. I suspect the source of this claim is a customer service rep trying to assuage an unhappy customer.

I have no proof that the factory is O.K. with a few degrees of misalignment, only 40 years of buying S&W hand ejectors of all post 1900 vintages. The administrator here, handejector, has written the same thing that I wrote.

Think about what's involved. For all frame sizes one rotation moves the barrel in or out 0.028". If barrels were all turned in to the same torque then a 0.001" difference in the lathe cut on the barrel shoulder would make a 13 degree difference in where the barrel clocks. Perfection on a production line is impractical.

That does not mean that a manufacturer will not bend over back wards to make a customer happy. They don't need squawking on the internet.

Guns are for shooting, not examining in front of your computer. Carry up, rotational play at lock up, end shake, and the feel of the trigger pull are all higher priorities to me than perfect barrel clocking.

 

[garbler]

I have no proof that the factory is O.K. with a few degrees of misalignment, only 40 years of buying S&W hand ejectors of all post 1900 vintages. The administrator here, handejector, has written the same thing that I wrote.

Think about what's involved. For all frame sizes one rotation moves the barrel in or out 0.028". If barrels were all turned in to the same torque then a 0.001" difference in the lathe cut on the barrel shoulder would make a 13 degree difference in where the barrel clocks. Perfection on a production line is impractical.

That does not mean that a manufacturer will not bend over back wards to make a customer happy. They don't need squawking on the internet.

Guns are for shooting, not examining in front of your computer. Carry up, rotational play at lock up, end shake, and the feel of the trigger pull are all higher priorities to me than perfect barrel clocking.

Not sure about your math as all my shop notes are in storage but S&W N, L and K barrels were 36 inch when I was working on them and honestly I don't know what a J frame is. Ruger's were 24 and Colts I believe 32 inch threads. I do know this that holding a .001" on the shoulder is routine and any shop that can't hold .001" aint much. S&W went CNC in the late 80's and told the world they could hold tolerances to .0001" if necessary and maintain QC unlike any other factory in the firearms business in the USA at that time. Look up Steve Melvins press announcements for the NEW Smith & Wesson around 1987-88.

We are talking about fitting up barrels to frames in pretty much the same manner since WWII or maybe before. No more pins but same geometry etc. I would like to think this company can torque and index a barrel the same every time. Is barrel alignment important ? Is front and rear sight alignment important ? If not then I guess we just have to disagree.

BTW I've owned a lot of S&W revolvers and have personally never had a crooked barrel until I bought one of the first 625's. Funny thing is that JD Jones of SSK bought one made perhaps on the same day as mine and he too had a mis-aligned barrel and a ton of other problems that he wrote up in I think Handgunner magazine. As I recall that article went legal real fast. I love my Smiths as much as anyone. The design, fastest locktime and ease in slicking them up makes them the best to shoot, carry and look at. I just hate to see one financial regime after the next dilute not only the product but gut the factory of the really skilled higher priced labor.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I purchased a 649-3 and the barrel is over clocked (tightened to much?) by 2-3 degrees (guessing w/o a protractor maybe more). It's noticeable looking at the front of the gun. I have not shot it yet, but if it needs to be fixed what are the options? The decision to buy this gun may not have been a good one, but now it's time to make the decision right. I appreciate advice on this. I can't peddle it without full disclosure (don't really want to anyway). Send it to S&W? Find a good gunsmith? Buy the tools and do it myself? New barrel? Does a new barrel fix it? Some kind of washer or bushing? Help please!

Stay safe, John

This is not a "kitchen table" or amateur job. If it does not shoot straight and to point of aim, or if the front sight is so misaligned that it appears crooked in the notch, then send it S&W. Period.

 

[WR Moore]

Think about what's involved. For all frame sizes one rotation moves the barrel in or out 0.028". If barrels were all turned in to the same torque ....

I recall the progression at 0.027", but the torque isn't the same-no way you're gong to torque a J frame barrel to the same specs as an N frame. I'm not going into great detail, but based upon observation, the torque is based on angular alignment (hand tight/full contact vs final alignment), not numbers on a torque wrench. It's still a valid method and used a great deal in industry. However, the different frame sizes are going to result in different torque values.

Perfection on a production line is impractical.

Ain't that the truth-at least at prices we're willing to pay.

 

[Adk.IBO]

Thanks for the responses folks, as usual very helpful. First chance I'll run a box of ammo through it and report back.

Undoubtedly if there is a problem S&W will be the go to answer for me.


Stay safe, John

 

[F75gunslinger]

In my opinion, a new gun is just that. As such, it should be right. If I was a manufacturer of firearms, this type of consistent problem would be an embarrassment.Accidents happen..but this appears to be an issue that is relatively common. It seems to me that someone in QC needs to have a few weeks off unpaid and a stern talking to. We're not talking about a $200 knock-off. A new S&W, on a good day,will set you back quite a princely sum.....for that price, the gun should be properly aligned and everything should be set as it should be. Send it back to S&W and let them do the work..

I listen to different members who have sent guns back numerous times to get things fixed, and wonder how much money they spend in shipping costs for warranty work.

 

[Adk.IBO]

They have not made 649-3s for a long time. This one is a rode hard put away wet used gun. It may have come from the factory that way, who knows. Either way it will probably be my dime to get it fixed if needed.

 

[steelslaver]

S&W barrels all have 36 to the inch threads. One full turn is .027777778 1 degree is .00077

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

Not sure about your math as all my shop notes are in storage but S&W N, L and K barrels were 36 inch when I was working on them and honestly I don't know what a J frame is. Ruger's were 24 and Colts I believe 32 inch threads. I do know this that holding a .001" on the shoulder is routine and any shop that can't hold .001" aint much. S&W went CNC in the late 80's and told the world they could hold tolerances to .0001" if necessary and maintain QC unlike any other factory in the firearms business in the USA at that time. Look up Steve Melvins press announcements for the NEW Smith & Wesson around 1987.

Not to start an argument, but you can't hold a .0001 tolerance on a lathe. Or a mill. I've been doing tool and die work for 26 years, which isn't long, but I know that you can't hold those tolerances on a mill or lathe. You will have to grind it if you need it that close.

 

[garbler]

Not to start an argument, but you can't hold a .0001 tolerance on a lathe. Or a mill. I've been doing tool and die work for 26 years, which isn't long, but I know that you can't hold those tolerances on a mill or lathe. You will have to grind it if you need it that close.

I agree 100%. I was just rehashing some of the claims made by the Steve Melvin when he took over the factory and went full CNC in the late 80's. The Shot Show talk went something like-- with numerically controlled machines the days of operator error are over. These new machines can hold or deliver accuracy approaching .0001". With repeatable accuracy like this we may have to rethink our quality control processes. I guess he was a bit optimistic

 

[steelslaver]

That was part of my point when I pointed out that 1 degree was .00077. My experience has been that that you have to get the fit close then use enough torque to get it dead on without over clocking. If you use a set number of ft lb to install the barrel you will seldom end up perfect. The amount of torque needed to move a barrel with 36 to the inch threads a couple degrees isn't much. If it is hand tight and you have around 15-25 degrees it will align and stay tight without an undo amount of torque that would wreck the threads or crack the frame. We are not talking about lots of ft lb on these guns. More like something around 45-80. In comparison a torque calculator for a 5/8 bolt with 36 to the inch treads calls out for 208 ft lb of torque when used as a fastener. and doesn't wreck the threads. That 10 degree window gives you a tolerance of .0077.

I have a 1917 that I picked up cheap non original and ugly barrel. I just picked up a 1950 barrel that I am going to shorten to 4" and install. Right now it hand tightens to about 5 degrees and would loosen up even with the beloved pin. Rather than turn some of the barrel shoulder and take another turn I am going to take a small punch and make a series of 8 evenly spaced dimples around the shoulder. This will displace small amounts of metal around each punch and it will torque up and remain tight. I am also thinking of milling the frame and install adjustable sights and chamber the cylinder. If I don't get a rear sight assembly I am bidding on I may just mill the frame sight to suit me. Yup, going to bubba it, but, it wasn't a collector to start with. I will end up with a handy dandy, easy to carry 45 with shrouded ejector rod for under $400.