How is the 5900-series any lower quality a gun than the CZ75,P226, M9,GP35,etc?

Mark IV

Mark IV

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As the title indicates, I'm wondering how the gen 3 S&W's like the hi-cap, alloy framed 5903's or the steel framed 5906's, are substantively inferior to their very similar and popular counterparts, like the CZ75, SigSauer P226, Beretta 92/M9, Browning Hi-power, etc.
These other pistols all enjoy a certain "panache", in the minds of many, and a correspondingly higher monetary "value", that the Smiths simply do not, though they seem to match up virtually identically in most observable,relevant criteria.
Having owned everything listed, but the Hi-power, I can't identify any definable reason that the S&W 5900's should be any less desirable than these others, were we to objectively compare their attributes and functionality.
I think the S&W's are a victim of numerous biases,preconceptions, and prejudices that cause many to turn a blind eye to the stellar performance of these American-made work-horses, largely due to them not having an "Old World" pedigree.
Where am i going wrong here?
 
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I have had a number of 3rd gen autos and a few 2nd gen. Right now I have a CZ75 SP01 and a fixed sight 5906. The CZ is more accurate, more "shootable", and has better da\sa trigger pulls. It is also easier to take down.

U.S. made police and military contract Berettas were very similar to 3rd Gens in quality, fit, and finish. Italian made commercial guns seemed nicer.
 
For a short period of time 3G Smiths were the Model 10s of their time......every cop had one......... bumped by the Glock 17/19

CZ75...... were banned from import till what ......1990/92... Col Cooper sung their praises......................

Sig 226 more expensive.......................gun of the "SEAL's"....... what could be coooooler!!!!!

Browning HPs...... more expensive ..... harder to come by around here........the gun of ....... "Serpico" ...and the British SAS.........two thumbs up!!!!!!!

Beretta 92's.....Got more "Movie roles"..... Lethal Weapon, Die Hard.... so way coooooler than any Smith........short of a 6 1/2" Model 29!!!!!!!!!

The ASP made it into the James Bond books....... but never got the casting call for the Bond movies....... or the 3913/14 would be the PPK of the 21st Century..........





In the good old USA ........ it's all about ........MARKETING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D
 
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Mark IV said:
Where am i going wrong here?
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Not having been around and wide awake during the years when 3rd Gens were shiny brand new in dealer display cases, I can't give you an apples-to-apples comparison of 3rd Gens to the similar all-metal pistols of the day. Today, the comparison must almost always be made between used 3rd Gens (some of them very used) and competing all-metal pistols that are still available brand spanking new.

Of course the brand spanking new all-metal pistols are going to cost more than used 3rd Gens. Of course their "value" is going to be higher just due to simple market forces and buyer preferences. Team 3rd Gen member preferences notwithstanding, not everyone else out there wants to buy a used all-metal gun with all the baggage that goes along with older, unsupported guns... especially when fully-warrantied modern plastic is so damn cheap! ;)

That said, I recently had an opportunity to pick-up a brand new Sig P226 at a very attractive price and terms. As much as I like the gun (and all the "cool" status that goes along with owning a Sig), I couldn't bring myself to do it. I got this close to doing the deal... but then I started to think about the fact that my "slightly used" 3rd Gens are every bit as good as the P226 at half the price. :) Suddenly, the Sig P226 didn't seem like such a good deal after all! ;)

The Browning Hi-Power is another matter. They aren't available new in my loony moonbat state so the "value" here is through the roof just due to that fact. Same with the CZ pistols. :o The extreme scarcity factor (due to our "lists") can have a huge effect. :(

The Beretta 92FS *is* widely available here and used ones are very comparable in price/value to used 3rd Gens. It's about as close a comparison I can think of off the top of my head. :)
 
The 5906 is HEAVY compared to those others. All stainless will do that. Functionally I'd put it up with the Beretta 92 though the grip on the S&W is better (for me at least). I found my 5906 to be tall (high profile) and simply heavier than it needed to be for 9mm. I like a friend's 6904 much better.

The SIG and the CZ75 are just better designs IMO. Easy to take down, accurate, as good as DA/SA triggers can get.
 
GatorFarmer said:
I have had a number of 3rd gen autos and a few 2nd gen. Right now I have a CZ75 SP01 and a fixed sight 5906. The CZ is more accurate, more "shootable", and has better da\sa trigger pulls. It is also easier to take down.

U.S. made police and military contract Berettas were very similar to 3rd Gens in quality, fit, and finish. Italian made commercial guns seemed nicer.
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"Accuracy" is in the hands of the shooter. While I can't comment on the trigger of your CZ I'll concede that the triggers on my Smith autos aren't the top of the line but are consistent and shootable. I can keep up with most using my 6904 but I like the gun and have shot it regularly. Anyone who bests me has better skills but not a better gun. Take down and design is what it is...

To the op's question my response would be that a "good" auto feeds, fires and ejects and earns the trust of the shooter. I trust my 3rd gens 100% and carry them. Will the op like them? Personal opinion but they have lots of fans.
 
To address several of the points previously brought up:
Any perceived difference in accuracy is largely irrelevant, as ALL these guns are more than "combat accurate", exactly as they were intended to be. None of them were designed, nor have any need, to hit Coke cans at 50 yards.
The same goes for trigger pulls. None of these were designed or intended as finely-tuned target pistols with hair triggers.
Go to any other gun forum, and look at posts on any of these pistols, and you'll hear repeated references on how a "good gunsmith can fix that stock trigger".
Also, the comments about ease of take-down (aka, "field stripping") are largely nonsense. NONE of them are remotely difficult to field strip, so whether one is a tiny fraction easier or harder to field strip than another is completely irrelevant.
What I'm wondering here is, is there any discernable,substantive,quantifiable way that these other renowned pistols are significantly,provably superior to the gen3 Smiths in reliablitiy,longevity,accuracy, and any other way that you would judge a combat pistol ?
I'm gonna go ahead and say, "no", they ain't. :eek:
 
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"As the title indicates, I'm wondering how the gen 3 S&W's like the hi-cap, alloy framed 5903's or the steel framed 5906's, are substantively inferior to their very similar and popular counterparts, like the CZ75, SigSauer P226, Beretta 92/M9, Browning Hi-power, etc."

It isn't...
 
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SPEEDGUNNER said:
It isn't...
Last edited by SPEEDGUNNER; Today at 07:43 PM.
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LOL !! I don't mean to bust on you, bro, but this cracked me up! Did you really have to come back and edit, "it isn't"? :D
(and since you were in the neighborhood, I'm thinking you shoulda made it, "they aren't" ;))
 
S&W 3rd gens are the equal of SIGs and Berettas in fit and finish. They're nicer finished than CZs (my new SP01 Tactical has machining marks and an inconsistent painted finish on internals, which CZ acknowledges is common since it's mostly there for cosmetics). I think the CZs are the most ergonomic by far, but S&Ws have excellent triggers - better than a stock CZ or Beretta, equal to a standard SIG, and only slightly inferior to a SRT SIG.

The biggest issue I have with the S&Ws is that they're kind of dated. The other makes have had constant improvement in ergonomics over the past thirty years. With the S&Ws dead, they've missed out on some of the newer trends in grip design, decocker location and operation, and accessory rail options.

I think a warmed over 4th generation with an optional accessory rail, tweaked grip and beavertail profile, and xx26/76-like decocker would give SIG and CZ a run for their money and beat Beretta by a mile, but S&W has lost interest in the market. It's sad, but that's how it goes. For the record, I'm a CZ fan until S&W gets it's act together.
 
If we take the Beretta 92, the CZ-75, the Browning Hi-Power and the Sig P226 and pit all of those against the S&W 3rd Gen 9mm pistols, two quick things jump out at me as obvious differences that could certainly affect their popularity:

1) all of "the other guys" are in production and are (likely) to have better manufacturer support in both parts and service

2) all of "the other guys" have had or still do have very high profile military contract and the notoriety that always follows such contracts

To a lesser degree but still something I notice most often when someone cites a reason for NOT choosing a 3rd Gen includes two heavy hitters... the magazine disconnect safety and a thumb safety that many claim "backwards" because they loathe "up to fire". Admittedly, the Beretta suffers here also.

Does any of this make a 3rd Gen inferior? I don't think so, but many folks (especially when discussed OUTSIDE of a S&W forum) often do.
 
9 MMs that will go cocked and locked are easier to score higher with in matches. The double action category in most matches allows Glocks and Springfield XDs which are easier to make the first shot with. Avoiding the first shot double action also makes it is easier to teach recruits to master striker fired pistols. The relatively low prices on 5900 series pistols is a consequence of their former wide spread acceptance. Too many were sold as police surplus for them to command much of a price while traditional DA/SA pistols are fading into obsolescence.

That's not to imply that I do not like them, but I already have more than I need so there's no profit to be made bring them back for me.
 
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You know what I really like about my Smiths, THE short and crisp trigger reset. Not sure how the others are, but would be interested to know. If they weren't comparable, that would be a turn off for me.
 
Having owned all of those guns I can confidently say that we are splitting hairs if we say one gun is of better quality than the other. All of them the OP listed are very good in every way, especially the Hi Power and 5906. I have fired different 5906's tens of thousands of rounds and it will beat any other gun I have owned in terms of reliability, even the Hi Power. The gun will feed any ammo. It is that single trait, I feel, that makes the 3rd gen guns the best. Nothing is more important in a service gun than reliability. I have a 5906 that has fired about 50000 rounds and was abused by firing 1600 to 2000 rounds that were accidentally re-loaded to 120% and that gun is still in perfect working order. As far as re-sale value, some 3rd gens such as the 5906 and 5903 were issued in far greater numbers to Law Enforcement oner the last 30 years than those other guns you listed. So there-in-lies the reason for lower prices on those guns. The OP stated that the 3rd gens do not have the "Panache" of the other guns. I think that is a function of who we associate with and what guns they are fans of. Of course the HI Power reigns supreme in history and it should because it has been around since 1935 and it is well deserved. But I have said it here before and it is worth saying again: If somebody says there is a better 9mm gun than the 5906 they just don't know what they are talking about.
 
Mark IV said:
I'm wondering how the gen 3 S&W's like the hi-cap, alloy framed 5903's or the steel framed 5906's, are substantively inferior to their very similar and popular counterparts, like the CZ75, SigSauer P226, Beretta 92/M9, Browning Hi-power, etc.
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Someone's been telling you lies.

I'm sure the pistols listed above are all fine examples, but the 3rd Gens "inferior" I don't see it.
 
I'm new to 3rd Gen S&W pistols, but have "competed" with and carried a CZ 75BD and P-01. The CZs are fun and easy to work on, tweaking springs and hammers.

I also had and liked a Beretta PX4 (decocker only).

I mostly stayed away from the S&W due to the safety lever, afraid I would inadvertently place it on safe.

Having just purchased a 3913, I am now a big fan. I'm having to get used to the different trigger pull (assuming it's the mag disconnect). Though the trigger on my 3913 measures over 12# DA and 7# SA, I like it. And won't change it. I like that the reset and SA travel is short but is definite and distinct when it breaks.

My CZ 75BD has a 7# DA and 4# SA. I'm sure I'll shoot it better in IDPA right now. But I'm going to search for a 5903 and practice with it for IDPA. Should be fun.

Best of all, when I break down my 3913 (by the way, I don't find it hard. I'm not sure what the complaints are about), I am SO IMPRESSED with the finish and quality of the internals and the way the barrel locks up.
 
GatorFarmer said:
I have had a number of 3rd gen autos and a few 2nd gen. Right now I have a CZ75 SP01 and a fixed sight 5906. The CZ is more accurate, more "shootable", and has better da\sa trigger pulls. It is also easier to take down.

U.S. made police and military contract Berettas were very similar to 3rd Gens in quality, fit, and finish. Italian made commercial guns seemed nicer.
Click to expand...

When I bought my 92FS I compared a US built to an Italian built side by side and found absolutely no difference. I ended up taking the US built because it was a police model that came with an extra 15 round mag. The fit and finish were identical.
 
Florida J Frame said:
When I bought my 92FS I compared a US built to an Italian built side by side and found absolutely no difference. I ended up taking the US built because it was a police model that came with an extra 15 round mag. The fit and finish were identical.
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FYI for some years Beretta had 92/96s that would have a "P" on the box (not plastic cases but throw away boxes) and generally came with 3 mags......the finish wasn't quit up to commercial guns and they seemed to be guns intended for fulling police orders...................
 
All these guns have their spot in something.

CZ are popular with the competition crowd. I've never seen or heard or police issuing them. Maybe the odd dpt with a few officers that allows their own weapons, but there are no LE CZ contracts. These guns have a lot of aftermarket support as far as making them either carry or competition guns. Aside from different grips and sights S&W did not have this.

Hipower. Are like 1911 of the 9mm world. There is a certain history to them. They were used in ww2, in many parts of the 3rd world. It was the gun that invented the Mozambique Drill. ...two to the chest, one to the head. I don't think the Hipower belongs in this group. Not because of better or worse but just a different category. Like polymer guns would be in a different category.

Sig. Funny you mention this brand. Back after loosing to Beretta in the military trials Sig started loosing contracts. They were facing bankruptcy. They were either going to go the way of the dodo or restructure. ....which is what they did. Before that they had 3 basic models. 220 45acp, 226 9mm, 228 compact 9mm. What they did was make 30 different versions of each aimed at the civilian market. Each little option was it's own version. To cut cost they cut quality to the point that LE was once again dumping them for other choices. They have once again started to come around withinthe pest 8 years or so. Compared to S&W all Sigs were lighter. Alloy frames.

Beretta. It had its day as a LE firearm. Most agencies have dropped it. It survives on military contracts mainly. And in the secondary used gun market.

S&W never really offered much in the 3rd gen lineup. There were target guns but not many. You couldn't get different triggers, different finishes, no scary names (Sig nightmare), most came with that mag safety. For your avg civilian the only option was flat or palm swell grips. The 4006 was to big for how much ammo it held. Sub compact guns carry that much or almost that much. 4506/66 were and still are great guns but the move has long been to .....more ammo. Even the Sig 220 has been getting phased out. If I can carry more ammo in half the weight I will.

There's really nothing wrong with the 5900 but how do you perceive quality? Just cause its metal? Shiny? Lack of machine marks? Everyone is different for this. To me none of those mean quality. Or at least it not the main reason to buy one. To me, it's about its usefulness. How it carries, how reliable it is, parts availability. If I have 2 guns that do the same thing but one is half the weight then I'd carry that one.

Movies? Eh.....I don't think so. At least not as much as people think. They are still used. I saw one just on Sunday night's episode of The Walking dead. I see them in all kinds of movies and shows. If you want to look at product placement check out the movie Desperado. Nothing but Ruger P series and no one ran out to buy those.
 
Movies and TV do play a role; with the guy/gal who's only going to buy/own one or two guns................ and want to be cool. Pre-internet most of America got it's gun knowledge by watching TV and going to the Movies.........

Walther PPK....Bond (early 60s)
Browning HP....... Serpico (early 70s)
Smith & Wesson 29 .44magnum.....Dirty Harry (71/72?)
Bren Ten..... Miami Vice ( not a good example as the company went under)
Beretta 92...... Die Hard X3 and Lethal Weapon I,II,III (early mid 80s)
Colt Python........Rick's gun on the Walking Dead.

The TV Shows or Movies have to be blockbusters.............and the guns get a featured role of their own........in each of the movies above the Gun in question got to "star" in a scene of it's own........ Marketing....... Smith should have called the 3rd Gen guns "M&P"s cus that was their market.........and a big one......... until Glock started giving away their guns.....................


Also Sig was a big player with Federal Agencies for 10-15 years...... 228s and 229s were on a lot of Feds hips in the 90s and beyond.
 
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BAM-BAM said:
FYI for some years Beretta had 92/96s that would have a "P" on the box (not plastic cases but throw away boxes) and generally came with 3 mags......the finish wasn't quit up to commercial guns and they seemed to be guns intended for fulling police orders...................
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Mine came in a plastic case with a cardboard "over-box" that was marked "Pol Special". It came with 3 mags and when compared to the Italian commercial gun they were identical in fit & finish.
 
BAM-BAM said:
Movies and TV do play a role; with the guy/gal who's only going to buy/own one or two guns................ and want to be cool. Pre-internet most of America got it's gun knowledge by watching TV and going to the Movies.........

Walther PPK....Bond (early 60s)
Browning HP....... Serpico (early 70s)
Smith & Wesson 29 .44magnum.....Dirty Harry (71/72?)
Bren Ten..... Miami Vice ( not a good example as the company went under)
Beretta 92...... Die Hard X3 and Lethal Weapon I,II,III (early mid 80s)
Colt Python........Rick's gun on the Walking Dead.

The TV Shows or Movies have to be blockbusters.............and the guns get a featured role of their own........in each of the movies above the Gun in question got to "star" in a scene of it's own........ Marketing....... Smith should have called the 3rd Gen guns "M&P"s cus that was their market.........and a big one......... until Glock started giving away their guns.....................


Also Sig was a big player with Federal Agencies for 10-15 years...... 228s and 229s were on a lot of Feds hips in the 90s and beyond.
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Sig was but what allowed them to be a player was all those other guns with scary names and rainbow finishes. That's what was selling. If it weren't for that they would have folded in the late 80s
 
Florida J Frame said:
Mine came in a plastic case with a cardboard "over-box" that was marked "Pol Special". It came with 3 mags and when compared to the Italian commercial gun they were identical in fit & finish.
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Luck of the draw ?????....... not to say that any of the P Specials were bad... maybe just not as nice.......maybe sorted out as part of QC ...... some I saw looked more utilitarian...... for want of a better term.
 
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Arik said:
Sig was but what allowed them to be a player was all those other guns with scary names and rainbow finishes. That's what was selling. If it weren't for that they would have folded in the late 80s
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I remember the "rainbow finishes".....never saw one outside of a gunshop.....but "Scary names"??????? ...... I only recall the numbers.
 
Mark IV said:
As the title indicates, I'm wondering how the gen 3 S&W's like the hi-cap, alloy framed 5903's or the steel framed 5906's, are substantively inferior to their very similar and popular counterparts, like the CZ75, SigSauer P226, Beretta 92/M9, Browning Hi-power, etc.
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The only objective difference between the S&W's and the guns you list, is that those are still in production (and theoretically have better support from the mothership).

I own a few metal wonder-nines, and each has their subjective plusses and minuses. Something I might like, you might dislike, and vice-versa.

I own, for sake of comparison, a S&W 915 (w/ a trigger job and Trijicon sights), a Beretta 92 FS (used from LAPD), a CZ 75 (used from some Czech PD), a FEG Hi-power (from Israel), a Star 30MI (unknown original owner). All were purchased in the bargain range of $300 or below. All are duty-sized metal 9mms, comfortable to shoot, big if I want to conceal, but would look fine in a GI or LEO holster. All are hi-cap double stacks.

The 915 vs:
FEG Hi-power (this is a straight clone of the Browning)
  • 915 is aluminum frame, lighter than the steel HP frame
  • 915 is a little smaller
  • 915 is DA/SA, vs the SA only on the HP
  • 915 factory mags are 15 rds, HP OEM mags are 13 (but MecGar makes flush 15 rd mags)
  • 915 night sights give a little improved visibility, even with daylight shooting due to the 3 dot setup
  • 915 has stock plastic wraparound grip, FEG has stock wood grip panels

915 vs CZ 75
  • CZ has steel frame and is noticiably longer
  • CZ has stock polycoat/enamel finish
  • CZ has cocked and locked frame safety vs the decock safety on the slide
  • CZ has slide inside the frame, vs traditional slide fit

915 vs the Star 30MI
  • Star has blued steel frame and slide, feels like an anvil in terms of mass
  • Star has similar safety on slide, but doesn't decock- you put on safe and then can pull the trigger to drop the hammer
  • Star came with factory rubber grips
  • Star has similar slide/frame design to the CZ, inside the frame

915 vs the Beretta 92
  • Beretta is a bigger gun, with the more exposed "beretta" slide/barrel
  • Beretta has a Bruniton finish similar to the CZ polycoat on the slide, vs the blued S&W slide
  • my Beretta also has Trijicon sights, so the sight picture is the same, the safety/decock is the same, the aluminum frame is the same.

The prior owner removed the 915's magazine safety, and I removed the HP mag safety. The Star also has one, which is still in place.
The 915 has just a left-side safety, as does my CZ and HP. Beretta and Star are ambidextrous. From what little I understand offhand, only the CZ would be unable to mount an ambi safety, but then you could sub in the CZ 85. The 915 can use the 5906 safety as I understand it.

If you sub in the 5906 for the 915, the comparisons would change a bit; stainless steel frame and ambidextrous safety. Possible mag safety, possible sight difference.

All are comparable in performance, and all are the older metal frame (vs the newer, hi-tech polymer frames). It's like debating musclecars from the 60's and 70's, and debating between a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. What's best= your personal preference, but each can be "better" (or worse) than the other.
 
scoobysnacker said:
The 915 vs:

FEG Hi-power (this is a straight clone of the Browning)

  • 915 is aluminum frame, lighter than the steel HP frame
  • 915 is a little smaller
  • 915 is DA/SA, vs the SA only on the HP
  • 915 factory mags are 15 rds, HP OEM mags are 13 (but MecGar makes flush 15 rd mags)
  • 915 night sights give a little improved visibility, even with daylight shooting due to the 3 dot setup
  • 915 has stock plastic wraparound grip, FEG has stock wood grip panels
Click to expand...


Thanks for your great comparison of those pistols.
I just have one observation.
If you factor in MecGar mags, they also offer a flush fit 17rd mag for the 5900/915.[emoji106]
 
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