How is the 5900-series any lower quality a gun than the CZ75,P226, M9,GP35,etc?

All these guns have their spot in something.

CZ are popular with the competition crowd. I've never seen or heard or police issuing them. Maybe the odd dpt with a few officers that allows their own weapons, but there are no LE CZ contracts. These guns have a lot of aftermarket support as far as making them either carry or competition guns. Aside from different grips and sights S&W did not have this.

Hipower. Are like 1911 of the 9mm world. There is a certain history to them. They were used in ww2, in many parts of the 3rd world. It was the gun that invented the Mozambique Drill. ...two to the chest, one to the head. I don't think the Hipower belongs in this group. Not because of better or worse but just a different category. Like polymer guns would be in a different category.

Sig. Funny you mention this brand. Back after loosing to Beretta in the military trials Sig started loosing contracts. They were facing bankruptcy. They were either going to go the way of the dodo or restructure. ....which is what they did. Before that they had 3 basic models. 220 45acp, 226 9mm, 228 compact 9mm. What they did was make 30 different versions of each aimed at the civilian market. Each little option was it's own version. To cut cost they cut quality to the point that LE was once again dumping them for other choices. They have once again started to come around withinthe pest 8 years or so. Compared to S&W all Sigs were lighter. Alloy frames.

Beretta. It had its day as a LE firearm. Most agencies have dropped it. It survives on military contracts mainly. And in the secondary used gun market.

S&W never really offered much in the 3rd gen lineup. There were target guns but not many. You couldn't get different triggers, different finishes, no scary names (Sig nightmare), most came with that mag safety. For your avg civilian the only option was flat or palm swell grips. The 4006 was to big for how much ammo it held. Sub compact guns carry that much or almost that much. 4506/66 were and still are great guns but the move has long been to .....more ammo. Even the Sig 220 has been getting phased out. If I can carry more ammo in half the weight I will.

There's really nothing wrong with the 5900 but how do you perceive quality? Just cause its metal? Shiny? Lack of machine marks? Everyone is different for this. To me none of those mean quality. Or at least it not the main reason to buy one. To me, it's about its usefulness. How it carries, how reliable it is, parts availability. If I have 2 guns that do the same thing but one is half the weight then I'd carry that one.

Movies? Eh.....I don't think so. At least not as much as people think. They are still used. I saw one just on Sunday night's episode of The Walking dead. I see them in all kinds of movies and shows. If you want to look at product placement check out the movie Desperado. Nothing but Ruger P series and no one ran out to buy those.
 
Movies and TV do play a role; with the guy/gal who's only going to buy/own one or two guns................ and want to be cool. Pre-internet most of America got it's gun knowledge by watching TV and going to the Movies.........

Walther PPK....Bond (early 60s)
Browning HP....... Serpico (early 70s)
Smith & Wesson 29 .44magnum.....Dirty Harry (71/72?)
Bren Ten..... Miami Vice ( not a good example as the company went under)
Beretta 92...... Die Hard X3 and Lethal Weapon I,II,III (early mid 80s)
Colt Python........Rick's gun on the Walking Dead.

The TV Shows or Movies have to be blockbusters.............and the guns get a featured role of their own........in each of the movies above the Gun in question got to "star" in a scene of it's own........ Marketing....... Smith should have called the 3rd Gen guns "M&P"s cus that was their market.........and a big one......... until Glock started giving away their guns.....................


Also Sig was a big player with Federal Agencies for 10-15 years...... 228s and 229s were on a lot of Feds hips in the 90s and beyond.
 
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BAM-BAM said:
FYI for some years Beretta had 92/96s that would have a "P" on the box (not plastic cases but throw away boxes) and generally came with 3 mags......the finish wasn't quit up to commercial guns and they seemed to be guns intended for fulling police orders...................
Click to expand...

Mine came in a plastic case with a cardboard "over-box" that was marked "Pol Special". It came with 3 mags and when compared to the Italian commercial gun they were identical in fit & finish.
 
BAM-BAM said:
Movies and TV do play a role; with the guy/gal who's only going to buy/own one or two guns................ and want to be cool. Pre-internet most of America got it's gun knowledge by watching TV and going to the Movies.........

Walther PPK....Bond (early 60s)
Browning HP....... Serpico (early 70s)
Smith & Wesson 29 .44magnum.....Dirty Harry (71/72?)
Bren Ten..... Miami Vice ( not a good example as the company went under)
Beretta 92...... Die Hard X3 and Lethal Weapon I,II,III (early mid 80s)
Colt Python........Rick's gun on the Walking Dead.

The TV Shows or Movies have to be blockbusters.............and the guns get a featured role of their own........in each of the movies above the Gun in question got to "star" in a scene of it's own........ Marketing....... Smith should have called the 3rd Gen guns "M&P"s cus that was their market.........and a big one......... until Glock started giving away their guns.....................


Also Sig was a big player with Federal Agencies for 10-15 years...... 228s and 229s were on a lot of Feds hips in the 90s and beyond.
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Sig was but what allowed them to be a player was all those other guns with scary names and rainbow finishes. That's what was selling. If it weren't for that they would have folded in the late 80s
 
Florida J Frame said:
Mine came in a plastic case with a cardboard "over-box" that was marked "Pol Special". It came with 3 mags and when compared to the Italian commercial gun they were identical in fit & finish.
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Luck of the draw ?????....... not to say that any of the P Specials were bad... maybe just not as nice.......maybe sorted out as part of QC ...... some I saw looked more utilitarian...... for want of a better term.
 
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Arik said:
Sig was but what allowed them to be a player was all those other guns with scary names and rainbow finishes. That's what was selling. If it weren't for that they would have folded in the late 80s
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I remember the "rainbow finishes".....never saw one outside of a gunshop.....but "Scary names"??????? ...... I only recall the numbers.
 
Mark IV said:
As the title indicates, I'm wondering how the gen 3 S&W's like the hi-cap, alloy framed 5903's or the steel framed 5906's, are substantively inferior to their very similar and popular counterparts, like the CZ75, SigSauer P226, Beretta 92/M9, Browning Hi-power, etc.
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The only objective difference between the S&W's and the guns you list, is that those are still in production (and theoretically have better support from the mothership).

I own a few metal wonder-nines, and each has their subjective plusses and minuses. Something I might like, you might dislike, and vice-versa.

I own, for sake of comparison, a S&W 915 (w/ a trigger job and Trijicon sights), a Beretta 92 FS (used from LAPD), a CZ 75 (used from some Czech PD), a FEG Hi-power (from Israel), a Star 30MI (unknown original owner). All were purchased in the bargain range of $300 or below. All are duty-sized metal 9mms, comfortable to shoot, big if I want to conceal, but would look fine in a GI or LEO holster. All are hi-cap double stacks.

The 915 vs:
FEG Hi-power (this is a straight clone of the Browning)
  • 915 is aluminum frame, lighter than the steel HP frame
  • 915 is a little smaller
  • 915 is DA/SA, vs the SA only on the HP
  • 915 factory mags are 15 rds, HP OEM mags are 13 (but MecGar makes flush 15 rd mags)
  • 915 night sights give a little improved visibility, even with daylight shooting due to the 3 dot setup
  • 915 has stock plastic wraparound grip, FEG has stock wood grip panels

915 vs CZ 75
  • CZ has steel frame and is noticiably longer
  • CZ has stock polycoat/enamel finish
  • CZ has cocked and locked frame safety vs the decock safety on the slide
  • CZ has slide inside the frame, vs traditional slide fit

915 vs the Star 30MI
  • Star has blued steel frame and slide, feels like an anvil in terms of mass
  • Star has similar safety on slide, but doesn't decock- you put on safe and then can pull the trigger to drop the hammer
  • Star came with factory rubber grips
  • Star has similar slide/frame design to the CZ, inside the frame

915 vs the Beretta 92
  • Beretta is a bigger gun, with the more exposed "beretta" slide/barrel
  • Beretta has a Bruniton finish similar to the CZ polycoat on the slide, vs the blued S&W slide
  • my Beretta also has Trijicon sights, so the sight picture is the same, the safety/decock is the same, the aluminum frame is the same.

The prior owner removed the 915's magazine safety, and I removed the HP mag safety. The Star also has one, which is still in place.
The 915 has just a left-side safety, as does my CZ and HP. Beretta and Star are ambidextrous. From what little I understand offhand, only the CZ would be unable to mount an ambi safety, but then you could sub in the CZ 85. The 915 can use the 5906 safety as I understand it.

If you sub in the 5906 for the 915, the comparisons would change a bit; stainless steel frame and ambidextrous safety. Possible mag safety, possible sight difference.

All are comparable in performance, and all are the older metal frame (vs the newer, hi-tech polymer frames). It's like debating musclecars from the 60's and 70's, and debating between a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. What's best= your personal preference, but each can be "better" (or worse) than the other.
 
scoobysnacker said:
The 915 vs:

FEG Hi-power (this is a straight clone of the Browning)

  • 915 is aluminum frame, lighter than the steel HP frame
  • 915 is a little smaller
  • 915 is DA/SA, vs the SA only on the HP
  • 915 factory mags are 15 rds, HP OEM mags are 13 (but MecGar makes flush 15 rd mags)
  • 915 night sights give a little improved visibility, even with daylight shooting due to the 3 dot setup
  • 915 has stock plastic wraparound grip, FEG has stock wood grip panels
Click to expand...


Thanks for your great comparison of those pistols.
I just have one observation.
If you factor in MecGar mags, they also offer a flush fit 17rd mag for the 5900/915.[emoji106]
 
A shortened version of my above post (with the Sig P226 and the 5906 added)

Frame
Steel
  • 5906
  • CZ 75
  • Hi-Power
  • Star 30MI
Aluminum
  • 915
  • Sig P226
  • Beretta 92
Beretta and Sig have steel frame options at a premium price

Safety
Frame
  • Hi-Power
  • CZ 75
Slide
  • S&W
  • Beretta
  • Star
oddball safety trivia
  • Sig decocker only, on the frame
  • CZ cocks and locks, you can get a decocker model
  • Star has slide safety that doesn't decock; total opposite of Sig design
  • S&W does have some models that work like the Sig design, rare to find

Shooting style (DA/SA etc)
DA/SA
  • Beretta
  • S&W
  • CZ
  • Star
  • Sig
DAO
  • S&W
  • Beretta
  • Sig
SA
  • Hi-Power
  • CZ

Production
current
  • Beretta
  • CZ
  • Sig
  • Hi power (FN/Browning)
out of production
  • S&W
  • Star
 
85V65Sabre said:
Thanks for your great comparison of those pistols.
I just have one observation.
If you factor in MecGar mags, they also offer a flush fit 17rd mag for the 5900/915.[emoji106]
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Yeah, I only brought that up because the original mags on the HP are 13, and everyone else has 15 rd minimum.
Pretty sure you can get flush or near/flush mags that hold 17+ for each gun. I have a couple CZ mags made for the SP01 that hold 18, I have a couple for Beretta that I want to say are 18 or 19, etc.

Side note- if I were to remove the Star's mag safety, I understand I can use 59xx mags in that pistol too.
 
85V65Sabre said:
Someone's been telling you lies.

I'm sure the pistols listed above are all fine examples, but the 3rd Gens "inferior" I don't see it.
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A little reading comprehension goes a LONG way,broughams :rolleyes:.
The whole point in he OP was that I felt the 5900's were NOT inferior to these pistols, and said so more than once:

"I can't identify any definable reason that the S&W 5900's should be any less desirable than these others.."

"...though they seem to match up virtually identically in most observable,relevant criteria..."

"....I think the S&W's are a victim of numerous biases,preconceptions, and prejudices that cause many to turn a blind eye to the stellar performance of these American-made work-horses..."

"What I'm wondering here is, is there any discernable,substantive,quantifiable way that these other renowned pistols are significantly,provably superior to the gen3 Smiths...... ?
I'm gonna go ahead and say, "no, they ain't." "

Feel better now? :D
 
Mark IV said:
A little reading comprehension goes a LONG way,broughams :rolleyes:.

The whole point in he OP was that I felt the 5900's were NOT inferior to these pistols, and said so more than once:



"I can't identify any definable reason that the S&W 5900's should be any less desirable than these others.."



"...though they seem to match up virtually identically in most observable,relevant criteria..."



"....I think the S&W's are a victim of numerous biases,preconceptions, and prejudices that cause many to turn a blind eye to the stellar performance of these American-made work-horses..."



"What I'm wondering here is, is there any discernable,substantive,quantifiable way that these other renowned pistols are significantly,provably superior to the gen3 Smiths...... ?

I'm gonna go ahead and say, "no, they ain't." "



Feel better now? :D
Click to expand...


It was a joke!
My apologies.
 
I think a couple of you hit on it..is is solely a matter of not being in production anymore. You can'y advertise what you don't make anymore. The decision to blindly follow the polymer Glock model was not a very smart one. They could have easily taken both paths. And would be selling 3rd gen..probably by now 5th gens. But they didn't and so 3rd gens are at least 15 years old and many much older.
 
Inferior? No. My 4 3rd gens are accurate, reliable, well made, and durable.
Plus, they will cycle empty brass from the magazine.
Needless to say, they've never choked on any kind of ammo I've fed them.
Mine have triggers as good as or better than most other DA/SA autos.
Perhaps not the very best triggers in the world, but nowhere near bad (as opposed to a factory Glock trigger pull).

The only reliability issue I've had with a 3rd gen was caused by worn out mag springs (early 6906).
3 of the 4 were cop trade-ins.

Prior to my 3rd gens, the only guns I had personally owned that would cycle empty brass were a Tokarev and a CZ52. They only were able to do it because of the bottlenecked brass.

While its true that my CZ82 has a better trigger than my 3rd gens, it also has a better trigger than any DA/SA auto I've owned.

The only one of my 3rd gens that I haven't shot yet, is my 5906.
I expect it to be just as reliable as the 5946, 6906, and 4566.
Load, fire, repeat until you run out of ammo or range time.
 
rwsmith said:
Isn't it amazin' how S&W could put out a comparable pistol at a lower price. I don't feel ANYTHING on my 5943 that feels or looks chintzy.
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I'm not sure this would be the case if these were still in production. Used 5906's are bargains at $300-$400; but you find used CZ's and Beretta's at about the same price point, and they're still being made.

My guess is that Sig would still be the most costly, with S&W and Beretta in a virtual tie, and CZ generally just a bit less.
And all four are fine pistols.

And really, like another poster stated, the Hi-Power doesn't fit into this group. It's more closely tied into the 1911 market.
 
growr said:
In MY world the 3rd Gen Smiths are quite the equal of all listed....I own and shoot all mentioned.

Randy
Click to expand...

Ditto, except I don't own ALL mentioned, just some. But I've shot most of them.

I love third Gen S&Ws. I routinely carry a 6906, sometimes I carry a CS-45.

They are wonderful!
 
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