AndrewWeber
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Exactly how much powder is there in a late 70’s Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing 158 gr case?
How many grains of powder ?
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Qc Pistolero
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I guess you'll also want to know what powder it is.Just taking a round apart and weighting the powder won't tell you a thing;you also need to know what is the powder and that is THE question.
Even if someone disassembled a cartridge and measured the powder charge, the information would be useless without knowing the powder type, and lot number, and this powder would not be available to a hand loader anyway.
Judging by your very first question on this forum, you are, my friend, swimming in very dangerous water.
^^^ Righto
Do you have a reloading manual? My Lyman book says that the max load for max velocity with a 158 gr fmj is with 14.9 grains of Acc #9 powder at 1357 fps.
Or look on the websites for powder manufacturer's websites for reloading data.
Of course observe all safety rules, don't start of with a max load and work up. And confirm reloading data for yourself. LEARN all you can about reloading before attempting any experimentation. There's a LOT more to reloading than just powder/bullet charges.
Do you have a reloading manual? My Lyman book says that the max load for max velocity with a 158 gr fmj is with 14.9 grains of Acc #9 powder at 1357 fps.
Or look on the websites for powder manufacturer's websites for reloading data.
Of course observe all safety rules, don't start of with a max load and work up. And confirm reloading data for yourself. LEARN all you can about reloading before attempting any experimentation. There's a LOT more to reloading than just powder/bullet charges.
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Ivan the Butcher
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I can tell you this much, they called the powder 230, 231, or 296. I know this how? Because they call all of that range of powders those numbers! And none of the factory powders are what is sold to reloaders! (my info in the 80's showed 11 types of 231, and in the 90's 12 types, but not any were necessarily the same as the 80's powder. I'm told a batch of powder is around 10 tons. The test each batch for burn rate and pressure properties, Then use those figures to determine how much to use in a particular loading. Then they make a sample batch and test it; and adjust it or move to a different batch.
Ivan
10 tons would make roughly 40,000,000 rounds at 3.5 grains of powder. Or 10 million at 14 grains!
Ivan
10 tons would make roughly 40,000,000 rounds at 3.5 grains of powder. Or 10 million at 14 grains!
Can you tell us the reasoning behind your question? If we knew why you're asking, we might be of more help. As others have said, just knowing the charge weight of a 70's era load is unlikely to be useful.
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AndrewWeber
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Ok, do you know what powder type the factory put in their late 70’s Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing 158 gr cases ?
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AndrewWeber
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Ok, what would be the approximate amount of powder in a factory made early 80’s Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing 158 gr case? I don't get it ?
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Tex1001
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Hi, Andrew:
These fellows are dancing around your initial question because they are concerned that you might be trying to duplicate the original loading (Bullet weight/velocity) by simply picking a currently produced powder and pouring the original amount/weight of what was the original factory powder into a reload. This is not the way to duplicate the original factory bullet.
Duplication can be done, but only by chronographing the original load and then duplicating the velocity with modern bullets and a safe load of appropriate, MODERN powder, called canister powder.
These fellows are dancing around your initial question because they are concerned that you might be trying to duplicate the original loading (Bullet weight/velocity) by simply picking a currently produced powder and pouring the original amount/weight of what was the original factory powder into a reload. This is not the way to duplicate the original factory bullet.
Duplication can be done, but only by chronographing the original load and then duplicating the velocity with modern bullets and a safe load of appropriate, MODERN powder, called canister powder.
Tex1001
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We can measure the original charge weight. We CANNOT know for certain what powder was originally used. Cartridge powders can't be identified by how they look, smell, taste, or what they weigh. Powders used in factory loads are also frequently discontinued. Attempting to duplicate a factory load by choosing a powder at random and pouring in what the original weight was, will always result in disappointment at best and (Usually) disaster at worst.
The folks replying to your original post are trying to be helpful.
They are not treating you like an idiot. All of the questions they asked and the points that they, and I, made are part of being helpful.
The folks replying to your original post are trying to be helpful.
They are not treating you like an idiot. All of the questions they asked and the points that they, and I, made are part of being helpful.
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AndrewWeber
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Hi, Tex1001
I am not planning to try anything. I just want to know what the approximate amount of powder was in a factory made early 80’s Winchester .357 Magnum Metal Piercing 158 gr case?
1 grain ? 2 grains ? 3 grains ? and so on ? I have no idea but want to know.
Tex1001
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The simple answer is, no one knows. The powder type and lot number is buried in Winchester's records. Whatever powder it was, it was never made available to the public.
Tex1001
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Post #12^^^This post makes your original question valid. There IS an answer.
I have a box of Winchester metal piercing 357 magnum from the late '60s. Give me a couple of days to dig it out and pull a bullet.
Someone else may beat me to it.
I have a box of Winchester metal piercing 357 magnum from the late '60s. Give me a couple of days to dig it out and pull a bullet.
Someone else may beat me to it.
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Tex1001
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By the way, that Winchester metal piercing load was a big disappointment. The bullets looked wicked but they never performed up to the factory hype. I was a LEO back then and we tested them on an old engine block.
We did find that the 30-30 150 grain RNSP was a much better metal piercer.
We did find that the 30-30 150 grain RNSP was a much better metal piercer.
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With that 158gr bullet I'd go with 16.0gr of ww296 powder. What they did, who knows??? Back then they used ww297 powder (commercial grade) that common handloaders like us couldn't buy. I remember seeing drums of it back in the early 80's.
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AndrewWeber
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Just as a note;
The same load put out by Remington or Federal will probably be
totally different in powder weights and types and even FPS.
As mentioned and printed in "Rags", this load was a flop along with the 200 grain flying "Ash tray", back in those days.
"BAR"......... the only way to go.
The same load put out by Remington or Federal will probably be
totally different in powder weights and types and even FPS.
As mentioned and printed in "Rags", this load was a flop along with the 200 grain flying "Ash tray", back in those days.
"BAR"......... the only way to go.
After reading this thread I still can't imagine why you want the answer so badly. It will be a completely meaningless piece of information, whether it's two grains or twenty.Ok, Tex1001
Thank's, can't wait to hear the answer
Well, there are literally zero true, full-spec and proper .357 Magnum loads that have ever used 1, 2 or 3 grains of powder.
Starting at it’s most basic (as we have no idea of your level of knowledge or your intent) it first makes sense to note clearly that in this endeavor, a “grain” is actually a standard unit of measurement. So simply to be clear, a grain isn’t a “granule” or a piece of powder, it is a weight measurement whereby 7,000 grains equals one pound.
Full-spec .357 Magnum (properly!) uses a powder that is a bit slower with regards to burn rate, relative to other handgun ammo. While a target level load might use a faster powder and 5-6 grains of it, a “late 70’s Winchester metal piercing 158gr” case would typically use a slower burning powder and MUCH more of it, such as the 15-17 grains mentioned in a post above mine.
Commercial ammo typically doesn’t use the same powder that handloaders can purchase. They tend to use HUGE lots of powder that they alter to do specifically what they want that powder to do. They don’t read a load recipe from a book like many handloaders do, they load a charge and test it and alter things from that point to get the result they desire and they do this in controlled laboratory conditions with a bankroll that exceeds the handloader’s typical net worth.
And in the 1970’s, they had much more primitive equipment and it is likely that they didn’t have nearly the full idea of what they were making and selling nearly as well as they do these days.
Often we will have an author show up at the forum to ask questions similar to yours so that he can write something in a fiction novel that will read well even to those select few that will appreciate the level of detail. The general audience here include exactly those kinds of folks and nobody has ever minded these kinds of questions and are happy to help.
But the process tends to run more smoothly when the person who asks the question gives some sort of background or goal behind the question. Otherwise, to many of us, it reads as if perhaps some neophyte might attempt something downright dangerous using poor research.
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