How many grains of powder ?

[AndrewWeber]

Okay, here we are:

Cartridge loaded with EXACTLY 14.0 gr., no more, no less, of a very fine grained powder. Charge weighed 6(SIX) times, three on electronic scale, three on balance beam scale.
Pictures are below. Note the July, 1969 price. Box photo'd with an intact cartridge and the pulled projectile.
Notice that the bullet is swaged lead with a pointed cap made of what appears to be gilding metal (Non magnetic).

This report is worth every cent that you paid for it.

I am so thankful, I couldn't have got a better answer ! Thank you for your understanding, Tex1001 !

 

[ruggyh]

"Originally Posted by Tom K View Post
After reading this thread I still can't imagine why you want the answer so badly. It will be a completely meaningless piece of information, whether it's two grains or twenty."

i'll have a follow up question for you, when I get what you call "meaningless piece of information" from Tex1001

and the follow up question is?

 

[jimbo728]

Glad Andrew got his answer but Im still shaking my head over his question.
Jim

 

[Tex1001]

I am so thankful, I couldn't have got a better answer ! Thank you for your understanding, Tex1001 !

We're buds, now. Just call me Tex.

 

[AndrewWeber]

and the follow up question is?

Is it now possible to return let's say only 3.0 gr of the 14.0 gr into the case ? And what would be the result on recoil, sound, velocity ? how much difference would it be from 14.0 gr to 3.0 gr in the case ?

 

[Tex1001]

While it would be technically possible, it would be a very bad idea. Going from 14gr. way down to 3gr. of what is undoubtedly a very slow pistol powder would reduce muzzle velocity dangerously and might very well lodge a bullet in the handgun's barrel.
Finding a reduced charge of the original powder that MIGHT reliably reduce muzzle velocity would involve:

1 Pulling the bullet so as not to deform it
2 Removing a very small amount of original powder
3 Recording how much powder was removed from the original powder charge
4 Replacing the bullet
5 Firing the bullet to observe and record ballistic characteristics

The five steps listed above are theoretical in nature.
PERFORMING THESE STEPS IN THE REAL WORLD WOULD BE EXTREMELY IRRESPONSIBLE!
PEOPLE HAVE PROBABLY BEEN INJURED OR KILLED AS A RESULT OF ATTEMPTING THIS!

No responsible person should ever reduce a factory powder charge at all, much less as drastically as you have suggested.
Tinkering with charges of a powder with unknown ballistic characteristics is always dangerous.

 

[AndrewWeber]

While it would be technically possible, it would be a very bad idea. Going from 14gr. way down to 3gr. of what is undoubtedly a very slow pistol powder would reduce muzzle velocity dangerously and might very well lodge a bullet in the handgun's barrel.
Finding a reduced charge of the original powder that MIGHT reliably reduce muzzle velocity would involve:

1 Pulling the bullet so as not to deform it
2 Removing a very small amount of original powder
3 Recording how much powder was removed from the original powder charge
4 Replacing the bullet
5 Firing the bullet to observe and record ballistic characteristics

The five steps listed above are theoretical in nature.
PERFORMING THESE STEPS IN THE REAL WORLD WOULD BE EXTREMELY IRRESPONSIBLE!
PEOPLE HAVE PROBABLY BEEN INJURED OR KILLED AS A RESULT OF ATTEMPTING THIS!

No responsible person should ever reduce a factory powder charge at all, much less as drastically as you have suggested.
Tinkering with charges of a powder with unknown ballistic characteristics is always dangerous.

ok, ok no one is going to do that !

But what would be the result on recoil, sound, velocity ? let's say at only 5.0 gr ? you didn't answer that

And another thing, judging from your post, this would certainly not be something an amateur would do, but only a very experienced reloader with deep knowhow in reloading data and so on, since it's so extremely dangerous ?

 

[Sevens]

If you disassembled a round of that stuff and had ONLY the original powder from that round to put back in to that round, a 5.0gr charge of that powder may very well not even get the bullet far in to the bore. It could move the bullet forward enough to lodge it in the barrel just enough where it will stop and allow the bit of gas to escape behind it out the cylinder gap.

However, if you had 5.0gr of a fast burning powder such as Titegroup or Bullseye then you would get a typical discharge/shot fired, but it wouldn't have the power, bullet speed, deep sound or recoil that 14 grains of the slower burning (proper) powder would give it.

To actually do all of the above, you needn't necessarily be skilled but you would need the proper tools, and only a handloader would have those tools available.

 

[AndrewWeber]

If you disassembled a round of that stuff and had ONLY the original powder from that round to put back in to that round, a 5.0gr charge of that powder may very well not even get the bullet far in to the bore. It could move the bullet forward enough to lodge it in the barrel just enough where it will stop and allow the bit of gas to escape behind it out the cylinder gap.

However, if you had 5.0gr of a fast burning powder such as Titegroup or Bullseye then you would get a typical discharge/shot fired, but it wouldn't have the power, bullet speed, deep sound or recoil that 14 grains of the slower burning (proper) powder would give it.

To actually do all of the above, you needn't necessarily be skilled but you would need the proper tools, and only a handloader would have those tools available.

It seems that I am not getting any answer to my follow up question, because I randomly say "3.0 gr" or "5.0 gr" ?

So I try this way: If you have less than 14,0 gr factory powder, any amount less. What would be the result or effect on recoil, sound and velocity ?

I do understand that nothing changes at 13,0 gr, so pic a leser gr

When will the recoil, sound and velocity change ?

And once again, I am not planing to do this. I don't have the 1969 bullet, Tex has the 1969 bullet and factory powder

 

[Engineer1911]

To add clarity to the discussion, in 1990 I shot through the 1/4" thick steel web of an I-beam at approximately 25 yards with a 30 Herrett Thompson Center Contender. The bullet was cast lead 130 grains with a gas check. Muzzle velocity was 1,500 FPS measured on my chronograph.

 

[ddixie884]

If the factory round has a jacketed 158gr bullet14gr of 2400 powder giving @ 1300fps. Reducing it by 1gr would probably only reduce by 50 or 75fps. 2gr less 100 or 150fps. At @ 10gr you would be less than 1,000fps. Going down to 8gr would be taking a chance on sticking a bullet in barrel.

 

[AndrewWeber]

To add clarity to the discussion, in 1990 I shot through the 1/4" thick steel web of an I-beam at approximately 25 yards with a 30 Herrett Thompson Center Contender. The bullet was cast lead 130 grains with a gas check. Muzzle velocity was 1,500 FPS measured on my chronograph.

I will get to, what the bullet can go through question, after I get the answer to my follow up question.

 

[AndrewWeber]

If the factory round has a jacketed 158gr bullet14gr of 2400 powder giving @ 1300fps. Reducing it by 1gr would probably only reduce by 50 or 75fps. 2gr less 100 or 150fps. At @ 10gr you would be less than 1,000fps. Going down to 8gr would be taking a chance on sticking a bullet in barrel.

Ok, that's more like it!

Will the gun also have less recoil and less sound at 9gr ?

 

[stu1ritter]

Speaking strictly theoretically, about only the physics involved, each tenth of a grain reduction in powder will of course lower the 1. recoil, 2. noise and 3. velocity. BUT there comes a point with some powders where, at low load levels you get tremendous pressure spikes. That point is mostly unknown and totally unknown for unknown powders. For example, a friend just had that level of curiosity and using a 357 Magnum revolver, loaded .38 Special cases starting at +P+ with Bullseye powder and worked the load by tenths down to 7/10th of a grain total load at which point the cylinder jammed as there wasn't sufficient velocity for the bullet to clear the cylinder. As he suspected, Bullseye was not a low level spiker.
He has never repeated the experiment with any other powder.

Stu

 

[AndrewWeber]

Speaking strictly theoretically, about only the physics involved, each tenth of a grain reduction in powder will of course lower the 1. recoil, 2. noise and 3. velocity. BUT there comes a point with some powders where, at low load levels you get tremendous pressure spikes. That point is mostly unknown and totally unknown for unknown powders. For example, a friend just had that level of curiosity and using a 357 Magnum revolver, loaded .38 Special cases starting at +P+ with Bullseye powder and worked the load by tenths down to 7/10th of a grain total load at which point the cylinder jammed as there wasn't sufficient velocity for the bullet to clear the cylinder. As he suspected, Bullseye was not a low level spiker.
He has never repeated the experiment with any other powder.

Stu

Very good ! Now the final and probably most difficult question, judging by the answers so far.

What would be the minimum gr of factory powder necessary for this particular bullet to just go through a human body, not any further, if you hold the gun directly to the chest ? Whats the sufficient velocity ?

 

[stu1ritter]

If you are considering the round that "Tex" took apart, totally unknown as the powder has unknown specs. Other than that it will take a forensic pathologist to answer your question. I think that is out of the realm of general reloading knowledge unless one of us happens to be a forensic pathologist who happened to have a spare body or two around to play with.
:~))

Stu

 

[AndrewWeber]

If you are considering the round that "Tex" took apart, totally unknown as the powder has unknown specs. Other than that it will take a forensic pathologist to answer your question. I think that is out of the realm of general reloading knowledge unless one of us happens to be a forensic pathologist who happened to have a spare body or two around to play with.
:~))

Stu

Funny answer But we do agree that the factory 14.0gr will go through and the 9.0gr will not. Or will it ?

Yes I am considering the round that "Tex" took apart

Bullet velocity knowledge is included in general reloading knowledge ?

 

[fordson]

Ok, that's more like it!

Will the gun also have less recoil and less sound at 9gr ?

Yes, you would have reduced recoil and sound with that reduced powder charge - but not substantially reduced. Recoil would not be as stout as the original Magnum load, but still very noticeable. Sound levels would still Be loud and require sound dampening (earmuffs or plugs for comfort and safety). What you have created ballistically, in effect, is a 38 Special.

To your second question, yes, a 38 Special would go through a 2x4 at point blank range.

 

[AndrewWeber]

Yes, you would have reduced recoil and sound with that reduced powder charge - but not substantially reduced. Recoil would not be as stout as the original Magnum load, but still very noticeable. Sound levels would still Be loud and require sound dampening (earmuffs or plugs for comfort and safety). What you have created ballistically, in effect, is a 38 Special.

To your second question, yes, a 38 Special would go through a 2x4 at point blank range.

So, you say 9gr is equal to a 38 Special and would go through a 2x4 at point blank range. Would it go much further after it has gone through the 2x4 ?

 

[msauter]

Is this thread disturbing anybody else?

 

[AndrewWeber]

Is this thread disturbing anybody else?

Why ? I am just doing some research.

If you don't know the answers, let those who do know the answers, answer.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Is this thread disturbing anybody else?

Sort of, but there is no need to participate in it. The others will see soon enough. Probably most already have. Not our business.

 

[AndrewWeber]

Sort of, but there is no need to participate in it. The others will see soon enough. Probably most already have. Not our business.

Ok, thanks for all your answers you have been most helpful.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Ok, thanks for all your answers you have been most helpful.

You have received more answers than you deserve. You are just now starting to get around to asking your question, even though you have already read enough here that you should know that your question can't be answered, anyway. If you are writing a novel, I suggest that you write it about something you know about.

 

[glenwolde]

My guess: Somebody's writing a book where the hero does this and wants to get it right.

 

[AndrewWeber]

You have received more answers than you deserve. You are just now starting to get around to asking your question, even though you have already read enough here that you should know that your question can't be answered, anyway. If you are writing a novel, I suggest that you write it about something you know about.

Why shouldn't anybody here know how far a 38 Special bullet would go after it has gone through a 2x4, shooting at point blank range ? of course they know. But you are scaring them off some reason?

 

[505Gibbs]

Is this thread disturbing anybody else?

It's 'STRANGE' to say the very least!!!

 

[ACORN]

Run away!!! Run away!!!

 

[nbedford]

If the factory round has a jacketed 158gr bullet14gr of 2400 powder giving @ 1300fps. Reducing it by 1gr would probably only reduce by 50 or 75fps. 2gr less 100 or 150fps. At @ 10gr you would be less than 1,000fps. Going down to 8gr would be taking a chance on sticking a bullet in barrel.

I agree with you that the 14 grain charge of powder was probably 2400 or a close equivalent thereof. From Elmer Keith - Six Guns: "we obtained best accuracy from the solid head Remington 38/44 cases loaded with Keith 160 grain hollow point or 173 grain solid and backed by 13.5 grains of 2400 in 45 frame guns and obtained the most powerful loads with the Keith 173 grain solid crimped barely over the front band with 14.5 grains of 2400". 2400 is a slow burner, and there is no way I'd touch a dramatically reduced load of 8 grains of 2400 - that is when I'd move over to Bullseye or Unique; though in that case I would not be loading even 8 grains. Another question I have is whether the pulled bullet was jacketed or swaged lead where it engaged the grooves. I have tried jhp loads in my 44 Special with middle of the road Unique loads which were fine in the 44 with cast bullets, but with a moderate load of 7 grains of Unique under a jhp, one lodged even with the end of my barrel.

Also, when you drastically reduce a slower burning powder charge you may wander into very strange pressure spikes which increase the chance of a blown up pistol. We ain't talking black powder here.

 

[dkelly27]

It sure is.