How much does the government know about the guns we own?

[TStick]

As I was explaining to a friend today, laws will be passed outlawing gun ownership and your neighbors will make a call and turn you in. The Gestapo will arrive and you will be arrested.
Good bye freedom.

You forgot to include the reward money passed out for turning someone in.

 

[zip777]

They could just have the FBI come on to these gun forums trace you back to your providers and get your address from them. Just about every member of a gun forum more than likely has a firearm.

I sold ALL MINE as well to some former LEO or so he told me. Times are tough needed to pay the bills. I just post here because I like the discussion.

 

[zip777]

I am a retired manager of data base administration in financial data. The info below is what I saw in dealing with government agencies. I know how verification records work. Here is what happens.

I had to deal with and interact with all levels of U.S. government and its databases for many years. It is true that data that is used for verification or back ground checks only has a short active record life. This does not mean the verification or back ground check data goes away.

Typically verification data is archived or condensed in to a transaction record then sent to lower level storage in from 1 to 3 days. Only those records flagged by cross check programs or operators will say active for verification for a longer period of time. These databases are very large because they deal with all of the U.S. states and hold many types of records besides gun registrations.

Once a verification record goes to a transaction record in lower level storage it is gradually condensed further as time passes. Then using the government record rules for record life cycle the transaction record is moved to cheap bulk storage where it can sit indefinitely. For many types of financial transactions I processed 2 years was the maximum on low level storage before moving to bulk.

At any time using any criteria the federal government could go through low level storage using data base query programs and pull up all the guns you purchased in the last 2 years stored in low level storage. Going through 10 to 30 years of purchases would probably be done once or twice a month along with other requests unless it had a high priority.

State governments are much different. Many states keep full lists of purchases in sub-databases hooked to car registrations and are managed by state police units or their equivalent. These are kept for use by state and local law enforcement units. Many people are surprised to find out that states keep larger sets of information about individuals in general than the federal government. However, when you are flagged by the feds their files are ten times the size of a state file.

As far as I know today Feds are not interested in internet site records unless key words come up involving national security in their searches. But they do the track tons more on you. Yep. GPS from your phone, credit card usage, purchases through club cards… It’s a long list. But most of the data today gets tossed because the volumes are so large.

If they tried to come after all our guns it would be a many years of effort. Anything congress passes of this magnitude would have to go through huge protests, countless individual court challenges since this is a constitutional amendment issue, challenges from states as to its implementation and individual back lash.

As another fellow IT professional I concur with this assessment. A knowledgeable co worker told me to ensure you delete all web based email over 6 months old as they can access any of these older email records without reason or warrant. You think google gives you all that storage for no reason and tell you "why delete with ALL this storage?!" lol

 

[stmry]

Boys,

The bottom feeders in Washinton may just be bright enough to figure out if you buy a hunting license you may have a gun!!!!

Perhaps you have a bow

 

[Poodle Soup]

Perhaps you have a bow

Do you have a quiver (do they still call it that?) that holds more than 10 arrows? Sorry deadly weapon, give it over or move to the desert.

 

[mr.jbk79]

Do you have a quiver (do they still call it that?) that holds more than 10 arrows? Sorry deadly weapon, give it over or move to the desert.

That would be a high cap quiver. You can't have broadheads either, too deadly, have to turn them over.

 

[dchapma1]

Took all mine to Penna. a few weeks ago and sold them at a show, face to face cash. I still enjoy reading the forums though as I did keep my trap shooting shotgun.

 

[BobC357]

Those background checks are apparently never destroyed. Time and time again, we hear that the government was able to determine that a bad guy acquired a gun months or ever years later. While the law may say to destroy those records, it doesn't happen.

Background checks are defacto gun registration.

Also warranty information submitted to gun manufacturers could be subpoened if the government really wanted to.

Basically, the government probably knows more about us than even we know ourselves.

 

[zip777]

Back in 1998 a higher level military IT guy told me. "If the average citizen understood all the gov knew about them....they'd all kill themselves".

14 years later....are you kidding me?! lol

 

[johngalt]

A buddy of mine used to have an FFL. Back in the Clinton days he told me that during on of his regular inspections the agent made a list of names from his stack of 4473 forms. This was of course illegal, but what can you do?

I saw a news story a little while back - some government official was bemoaning the fact they had to store all these paper 4473s and couldn't computerize them. Of course what they really want to do is create a registry from them, which is also illegal.

Here's a question - the law says that the 4473s must be kept for 20 years. What happens after 20? Can the FFL destroy them?

 

[Skeet 028]

They carry small portable printers to make copies of certain 4473s. I destroyed all of my over 20 yr records. The 4473 records are kept for 20 yrs. by the dealer. The BATF people can come check your records and make copies at any time. At my last record check I had been in business 27 yrs. The BATF agent asked where all the rest of my years of records were. I told him they were destroyed. Boy was he POed I countered with that was the law..He said it might be the letter of the law..but not the intent. I asked if he were a Supreme Court Justice Pissed him even more. He wanted to open my factory sealed Colt Match Target ARs to make sure they hadn't been altered. I literally told him if he did that he was costing me money..and since I assumed he was armed..I would consider it armed robbery. He was really way beyond POed by that time and threatened to take my license right then and there. I reminded him about armed robbery again. Then I got a hold of his boss. Forgot to mention there was a State police sergeant in the shop at the time. He told the guy he agreed with me..in Md of all places. Anyway a few years later I moved to Wyoming and had to give up the license. You send the 4473 forms in to the gummit and they destroy them..after making complete pictures of all records. They still only got 20 yrs worth. So there are all those records still able to be accessed by the gummit

 

[beemerphile]

That would be a high cap quiver. You can't have broadheads either, too deadly, have to turn them over.

Why does anyone need "Cop-killer arrows"?

 

[jtpur]

I think there would be little problem for the government to ferret out all gun owners. For example, the Attorney General could subpoena the NRA membership lists, under some guise of misuse of funds to influence some politician, All they would need is a complaint. ATF could step up inspections of FFL,s and gather info from 4473. Postal inspectors could compile lists of names of those of us who receive gun magazines. Concealed carry licenses, already part of govt data bases are available. Informants, and the methods are only limited by your imagination.
I remember one case, where we had a child injured in an auto accident. We could not find the parents. I stopped by a car dealership, walked into the finance manager,s office, explained the situation, requested a credit check on the mother, and in three minutes, had all her vitals and the name of her employer. Sure enough she was there at work, and not one neighbor knew her name, or place of employment.

 

[geoff40]

Logic would indicate that they should know a lot about what we have. Background checks, 4473s, etc. But the truth is, often they can't even do a trace with success, even though they should be able to.

I wouldn't have a lot of faith in the idea that they know exactly what any of us have, at least when it comes to the records. I should think our local PDs, which get copies of 4473s, would probably have a better idea than ATF.

 

[zip777]

There are VAST datacenters in Kansas and soon Utah where certain keywords from phone, text email etc key off recording. So it's not a matter of what they KNOW its a matter of what they wish to find via query. Change some report parameters and it would be simple for them to find out what you bought - firearms , ammo or otherwise.

 

[foxeye]

Its another reason not to have them listed on yur insurance policy either as it requires a serial number and description of the firearms. Its a hard call, take a chance on theft or fire or other disaster, or having the Feds get a list of all policy holders with firearms and serial numbers from insurance companies.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

I am sure they may kn ow who has them and who does not...I could care less. They are not going to take them.

 

[zip777]

Its another reason not to have them listed on yur insurance policy either as it requires a serial number and description of the firearms. Its a hard call, take a chance on theft or fire or other disaster, or having the Feds get a list of all policy holders with firearms and serial numbers from insurance companies.

Take photos burn them to CD and keep them in a fireproof box. OR set up an encrypted email acct like hushmail and email them to yourself OR set up an encrypted partition with true crypt.

 

[all357mag]

Knowing who's got the guns is the easy part, comin' to get them is the hard part!

 

[Mr Pokeyman]

Knowing who's got the guns is the easy part, comin' to get them is the hard part!

Dear All357mag,
You have been selected for an audit of your last 7 yrs of income taxes. Please report to your local IRS office with all pertinent receipts and all weapons that you own. Leave the weapons at the front desk. Failure to comply will result in your workplace being ordered to submit your entire paycheck to the IRS to cover any possible shortage of taxes. The audit should be completed within ten years. Also, your State will be asked to suspend your driving license until this matter is resolved. Your Gas, Water and Electric suppliers have been notified to cease all services to your residence under the Patriot Compliance Act. Under the new Mobile Healthcare regulations, you and your family will not be treated by any Dr or Hospital due to having weapons in your home. In order to protect your children from your reckless behavior, and to get them medical attention when needed, you will need to surrender them to Childrens Services. They also will not be permitted to attend school until this is done. We are sorry to take these measures but your government knows what is best. This can all be avoided if you will peacefully surrender your Red Ryder BB gun which we believe you have had since your 10th birthday. Thank you Sir. Have a nice day.
Your friendly IRS, BATF, and United Nations.