How much powder in a .357 case?

[bushmaster1313]

I read that because of its blackpowder origin there is a lot of space in a .38 Special shell not taken up by modern powder.

How much powder in a .38 special compared to a .357 magnum.

Huch much of the space does the powder take up in a .357 magnum.

Is there enough extra space to double drop charges into a .357 magnum?

I do not reload.

 

[Paul5388]

It all depends on the powder you're using. You can double charge with fast burning powders, like Bullseye, and even triple charge with it.

There may have been a very short period of time, around 1898, when BP was available in .38 Special, but it was designed as a smokeless cartridge.

The original 1935 era .357 used something like 15.0 gr of 2400, which can't be double charged in a .357.

 

[bushmaster1313]

You can double charge with fast burning powders, like Bullseye, and even triple charge with it.

Now I see why so many are against shooting reloads from annonymous sources.

 

[Rule3]

Severely reduced loads, as in little to no powder can be just as bad if not worse.

Failure to charge a case will result in the primer going off and lodging the bullet in the barrel. If you do not notice the "squib" and pull the trigger again the next bullet will hit the stuck bullet and Kaboom!

 

[bushmaster1313]

Severely reduced loads, as in little to no powder can be just as bad if not worse.

Failure to charge a case will result in the primer going off and lodging the bullet in the barrel. If you do not notice the "squib" and pull the trigger again the next bullet will hit the stuck bullet and Kaboom!

Thank you for the warning!

 

[john3136]

Severely reduced loads, as in little to no powder can be just as bad if not worse.

Failure to charge a case will result in the primer going off and lodging the bullet in the barrel. If you do not notice the "squib" and pull the trigger again the next bullet will hit the stuck bullet and Kaboom!

My first "squib" was one of the happiest days of my life.
I'd always been slightly worried that I might not notice it and get the Kaboom.
When the squib happened it was obvious straight away that something was not right, so I stopped, unloaded and quickly figured out what had happened.

At least now I'm confident that I'll notice an empty one now!

 

[OKFC05]

Trailboss powder is made for loading light charges for Cowboy Action into all the voluminous old blackpowder cases.
They have a worse problem than .357 with the low-pressure capability of the cartridges and old guns.

Yes, good judgement and attention to detail are need for safe loading. I cringed at a post on another thread yesterday about " can't find data for more than 4.2, so I think I'll try 4.5gr and see what happens." It probably won't blow a modern gun in good condition.....but the practice of guessing at loads usually just gets worse, until ....?

 

[Rule3]

Thank you for the warning!

It would probably be more of a problem with a revolver as opposed to a semi auto. Not that it can't happen. Never say never.

With a semi auto chances are the gun will not cycle and rack a new round so you will jam and hopefully field strip the gun and look in the barrel

But then there are those who have had a failure, hand racked the gun, ejected the case and pulled the trigger.

Guns should go bang, not spiff, or poof.

 

[snowman]

As already indicated, the faster-burning powders take up less space in the case than the slower ones. In my .357s I load 16gr. of VV. N110, and it fills the case to the base of the seated bullet. No chance of a double charge; it would spill all over the bench and floor. Would be very aggravating, but safe.

Andy

 

[Alk8944]

There may have been a very short period of time, around 1898, when BP was available in .38 Special, but it was designed as a smokeless cartridge.

This is absolutely untrue. From "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" Charles R. Suydam, Bienfeld Publishing, Inc. (C) 1977:

"First chambered in the First Model Hand Ejector of 1899, the .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by UMC early in 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year. Original loads were of 18 grains of black powder....... In June, 1899, the powder charge was changed to 21.5 grains....... The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899, probably 3.6 grains of Bullseye."

Clearly the .38 Special was originally designed for black powder, which was the only propellant available for several months. It was several years before production of black powder loaded ammunition for .38 Special, and every other revolver cartridge, finally ceased. For many the black powder loadings continued up until WWII. .38 Special continued to be available loaded with black powder possibly as late as 1920 or so. In no case did production of black powder ammunition cease immediately upon introduction of smokeless loads.

 

[bushmaster1313]

As already indicated, the faster-burning powders take up less space in the case than the slower ones. In my .357s I load 16gr. of VV. N110, and it fills the case to the base of the seated bullet. No chance of a double charge; it would spill all over the bench and floor. Would be very aggravating, but safe.

Andy

Built in safety check.

Might not be simian proof, but makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Paul5388]

You can read a lot of things that aren't necessarily true.

The .38 Special was introduced in 1902 as an improvement over the .38 Long Colt cartridge which, as a military service cartridge, was found to have inadequate stopping power during the Philippine-American War.[1] Although it was introduced sixteen years into the smokeless powder era—France adopted the first smokeless powder military rifle cartridge, the 8x50mmR Lebel, in 1886—the .38 Special was originally loaded with black powder, but was offered loaded with smokeless gunpowder within a year of its introduction.

Mike Cumpston has a M&P that was shipped on Dec 20, 1900 in .38 Special. The serial number is #8200, so that dispels the notion of 1902 being the date of origin. The smokeless load was introduced in September 1899 a matter of months after its introduction in May. It was presumably 3.5 gr of Bullseye, which was produced concurrently with Unique, before DuPont/Hercules got involved.

The First M&P - the Smith and Wesson Military and Police Hand Ejector Model of 1899

 

[armsmaster270]

If you have a squib load you might be lucky and have the bullet get stopped part way into the forcing cone & still in the cylinder locking the gun up till you tap the bullet with a wooden dowel. But don't count on it. I had one stop flush with the back of the barrel the base was black with soot & I raised my hand the Rangemaster took my gun, opened the cylinder pulled my one empty brass out & handed my gun back. I pointed to the bullet lodged in the barrel and asked "What about this?" He wasn't too happy he missed it.

 

[Beemer-mark]

It would probably be more of a problem with a revolver as opposed to a semi auto. With a semi auto chances are the gun will not cycle and rack a new round so you will jam and hopefully field strip the gun and look in the barrelQUOTE]
A 1911 WILL cycle with a squib load. Fact. been there, done that.

 

[Treeman]

Back to the case volume /powder capacity/excess space query.....WHile the .38 special may have increased volume to accommodate a larger charge of Black Powder (even though smokeless was available and the coming thing) it also was making the new cartridge
"Special" perhaps bigger equal better but certainly it was proprietary. Remember that the .44 Special did NOT increase ballistics over the .44 Russian initially-but it was longer and "special". Later development of the Magnums increased powder capacity unnecessarily...but it made certain that they didn't fit the old "Special" chambered guns just as the Specials weren't supposed to be put in their predecessors( although many "38 Long Colts" had chambers bored straight through and could have both specials and magnums mistakenly chambered.) The whole powder capacity thing is multifaceted-increased internal volume can allow higher overall performance at acceptable pressures...but it takes more and "slower" powder to maximize things and "efficiency" decreases. For example: What is the most efficient 35 caliber snubby revolver chambering? The marvelous old 9mm Parabellum. The .357 mag takes more powder and creates more muzzle blast and recoil getting a light .355/357 bullet moving at the same speed as Georg Luger's baby.................but the .357 can take even heavier loads to achieve a bit higher speeds with 125s and totally outstrips the 9 with heavy bullets.

 

[tgd31968]

It would probably be more of a problem with a revolver as opposed to a semi auto. Not that it can't happen. Never say never.

With a semi auto chances are the gun will not cycle and rack a new round so you will jam and hopefully field strip the gun and look in the barrel

But then there are those who have had a failure, hand racked the gun, ejected the case and pulled the trigger.

Guns should go bang, not spiff, or poof.

Absolute truth.

I had it happen to me with a 1911. We were doing some rapid fire drills, and I pulled the trigger, but with hearing protection and probably the heat of it being a rapid fire drill, I didn't realize it was only a primer pop. The gun did not cycle. Because it was a combat type drill, and I didn't notice the lack of a bang ( I though maybe the cartridge hadn't fed from the mag so the chamber was empty) I did what you do in such cases, I grabbed the slide to rack, tap and pull. LUCKILY, something had locked the gun shut and i couldn't get the slide back. I had an RO standing by me the entire time, and he hadn't noticed either.
The locked shut gun made us stop and try to clear the jam. I had to disassemble it to get it open and then we found the bullet in the barrel.
It was MY reload, and I know exactly what I did wrong. I have a 550B and I was adjusting charges. I dumped it in the scale, then I dumped the charge back in the hopper rather than the case because it was not the right charge, then put the case back in the machine. There was a distraction during that operation.

Luckily stupid was on sale that day and I got a discount instead of paying full retail.
It happens, so PAY ATTENTION. Factory loads can do the same thing.

 

[parabarbarian]

Severely reduced loads, as in little to no powder can be just as bad if not worse.

Failure to charge a case will result in the primer going off and lodging the bullet in the barrel. If you do not notice the "squib" and pull the trigger again the next bullet will hit the stuck bullet and Kaboom!

Here is a video of a couple of guys trying to blow up a 686.

Bullet in The Barrel Bust! | Guns & Ammo

 

[Alk8944]

You can read a lot of things that aren't necessarily true.

Mike Cumpston has a M&P that was shipped on Dec 20, 1900 in .38 Special. The serial number is #8200, so that dispels the notion of 1902 being the date of origin. The smokeless load was introduced in September 1899 a matter of months after its introduction in May. It was presumably 3.5 gr of Bullseye, which was produced concurrently with Unique, before DuPont/Hercules got involved.

The First M&P - the Smith and Wesson Military and Police Hand Ejector Model of 1899

I really do not understand what your point was. You cite an erroneous statement from an unknown source to prove what, that you can't believe everything in print or on the Internet? On the other hand, Mr. Suydam is a widely known and highly respected authority on American metallic cartridge history.

"Bullseye, which was produced concurrently with Unique, before DuPont/Hercules got involved."

Bullseye was not originally manufactured by Hercules, but by Laflin and Rand which was purchased by DuPont and dissolved as a corporation in 1907. DuPont and Hercules were one company until broken up as a result of Federal enforcement of the provisions of the Sherman Anti-trust Act in 1912. DuPont retained the single-base smokeless powder lines, while Hercules retained the double-base smokeless propellants.

Bullseye replaced "Revolver Smokeless", which was short lived, in 1898. Unique, which was introduced as a reduced load rifle powder, was introduced in 1900. Source, "The Smokeless Powders of Laflin and Rand and Their Fate 100 Years After Assimilation by DuPont", Klaus Neuschaefer. (C) 2007.

 

[Paul5388]

Bullseye was not originally manufactured by Hercules, but by Laflin and Rand which was purchased by DuPont

See, you can't even understand my memory failing where I stated clearly

before DuPont/Hercules got involved.

You also proceeded to quote another faulty source on Unique. Here it is from Alliant, with an original marked jar of Unique.

Note the last couple of lines that say "This powder was placed in water on June 26, 1899." It sure looks like Unique has been around longer than your "expert" thinks.

BTW, the advertisement campaign was originally touting the waterproof properties of Unique in wet conditions, like duck hunting loads.