That guy is lucky he has all his bodily parts, wow.
How NOT to reload...Kaboom!
- Thread starter DR505
- Start date
DR505-
I read, and re-read your OP. One thing that caught my attention right away was the weight of the charge. I realize you are passing just on what you received, but that said, it didn't sound right to me after using Unique for 25+ years in my .45's. My standard load is 7.5 grains under a 200 cast H&G #68 swc. That load fills the case to just about the base when seated normally for functioning in a 1911.
So.... I just went and pulled out some once fired W-W cases that haven't been re-sized yet. 13 grains filled them flush to the mouth, and even after some good tamping on the bench top they were only 1/16" below flush. Now, taking into consideration the slight added length of the Rowland case and figuring in that your friends friend may have tamped the snot out of his loads, I just don't see how he could seat that bullet to the proper COAL without a majorly compressed load resulting from doing so. Even then, I'm not sure he could seat the bullet correctly. If he did/could, it seems like he would have to have a barrel that has a longer throat and single feed his ammo. any way to get more info from your contact?
I read, and re-read your OP. One thing that caught my attention right away was the weight of the charge. I realize you are passing just on what you received, but that said, it didn't sound right to me after using Unique for 25+ years in my .45's. My standard load is 7.5 grains under a 200 cast H&G #68 swc. That load fills the case to just about the base when seated normally for functioning in a 1911.
So.... I just went and pulled out some once fired W-W cases that haven't been re-sized yet. 13 grains filled them flush to the mouth, and even after some good tamping on the bench top they were only 1/16" below flush. Now, taking into consideration the slight added length of the Rowland case and figuring in that your friends friend may have tamped the snot out of his loads, I just don't see how he could seat that bullet to the proper COAL without a majorly compressed load resulting from doing so. Even then, I'm not sure he could seat the bullet correctly. If he did/could, it seems like he would have to have a barrel that has a longer throat and single feed his ammo. any way to get more info from your contact?
C17
US Veteran
I load to industry specs. I use data from hodgen data center for loads using Longshot and Clark Customs data for loads using AA No 5. There is no need to hotrod it. It is already 1500 fps with 1,000 ft/lbs energy. If I want more than that Ill use my 7mm Rem Mag.
People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one
C17
US Veteran
Just an observation from one of my posts. I do not beleive that Glock was chambered in 460 Rowland ( based on the non- comp barrel) the ONLY place I know of that will even sell a 460 kit for a glock is 460rowland.com. I got my 1911 kit at Clark Customs and called them. They said it is very dangerous to buy the other kits due to the barrel coming out the back, unlike the 1911. I think this thread is a case of either hotrodding 45 ACP or stuck projectile in barrel from squib load, or over use of 45 Super. I would like to see a pic of the barrel where the caliber is stamped to prove it was 460R.
OP: Might I suggest gaining more information from the person this happened to? I am not sure if anyone noticed, but that is not a Glock Slide in the picture. It is an aftermarket LoneWolf Slide, and based on the barrel, an aftermarket LoneWolf Barrel as well. LoneWolf does not make 460 Rowland barrels and the slide can be identified by the serrations in the sides and on the front. Gen 1- Gen 4 Glock slides have vertical serrations in the back only, and reserve the forward portion of the slide for their engraving of "Glock 21" etc. I am certain the frame is a glock frame, as the part number on the trigger bar matches a glock trigger bar part number. This may have even been a catastrophic failure of an aftermarket barrel and slide. I am not trying to blow holes in the whole story, but as a previous poster has said, there is no way you can physically fit 13 grains of Unique in a 460 Rowland case and still be able to seat a bullet to a maximum 1.270 COL and still be able to chamber it, as it will headspace on the rim.
I realize you can only pass on the information in the manner in which you received it, and that is difficult to answer questions about someone elses mess. It is just that these kind of things require accurate information, otherwise things like Glock, 460 Rowland, and others get a bad name. The issue here could really be aftermarket gun parts, or a moron at a reloading bench.
People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one
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fredj338
Member
Tougher to see on semiauto rounds, but pressure signs are there. Look for case head/breech face markings, extractor markings, primer condition, even how far the case is thrown from the gun in relation to factory ammo is a sign. Definitive, no, but there. If you have an accurate micrometer, you can also measure case head expansion, again compared to factory rounds.
For the guys saying pressure signs are only readable with rifle rounds, you would be wrong. The same pressure signs are viable for handguns. The brass case is designe to withstand a certain pressure level. Get sticky extraction in a revolver, you are over pressure for that revolver. The case heads getting torn up on a semi, you are probably over pressure there too. It's nice to say stick to book loads but then what do the wildcat reloaders do? Yeah, we use a chrono & watch for pressure signs.
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Here is a bit from the e-mail:
C-17, very perceptive! So the question then...did the loader actually get up to 13 grains prior to mishap? And who would ream a barrel designed for a 21,000 psi round to one that generates so much more pressure?
C-17, very perceptive! So the question then...did the loader actually get up to 13 grains prior to mishap? And who would ream a barrel designed for a 21,000 psi round to one that generates so much more pressure?
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S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I am perfectly happy that some idiot says he loaded 13 gr. of Unique in a 460 Rowland case. I agree with Gun4Fun that the case would barely hold that much Unique. I do actually load the .460 Rowland but I shoot it in a 625 with the cylinder chambers reamed to Rowland dimensions. The 625 is also Mag-Na-Ported which mitigates the punishment to the shooter.
There is a misconception apparent concerning what the Rowland is. It's true the brass is 1/16" longer than 45ACP brass. BUT, the COL of Rowland rounds is exactly the SAME as 45ACP!! The extra length of the brass is intended to prevent idiots from chambering the round in guns Clark Custom thinks might be dangerous.
There is a misconception apparent concerning what the Rowland is. It's true the brass is 1/16" longer than 45ACP brass. BUT, the COL of Rowland rounds is exactly the SAME as 45ACP!! The extra length of the brass is intended to prevent idiots from chambering the round in guns Clark Custom thinks might be dangerous.
C17
US Veteran
Therin lies the problem. The 460 Rowland requires a ported barrel or a compensator, unless it is in a SW625 or Super Blackhawk. To give you an idea of the extra punishment the 1911 has to take, the kit came with a compensated barrel, a 24 lb recoil spring, a 2 piece guide rod, and a Wilson Combat Shok-buff. Most 460 Rowland rounds are listed to generate close to 39,000 but I don't have the equipment to measure that. I think a good "take away" from all of this is to modify guns only after extensive research, and then measure the amount of acceptable risk with those changes. Had the person who kaboom'd that glock done so...he may have gotten a ported barrel and stuck to listed loads. I understand why someone would want to work another powder ( as the only two powders published are Longshot and AA5), but at thise limits I wouldnt do it. Powder availibility is slim right now, as I just ran out of Longshot reloading my last 400 rounds of Rowland. I can wait until the right powder comes up again or buy factory rounds if I am that desperate. I am not on to risk my Sig Sauer on testing though, as the current setup set me back $1,600.
C17
US Veteran
Yes the COL is the same. It headspaces on the rim. That is why you cannot close the battery on a gun chambered in 45 ACP if you stick a 460 Rowland in the chamber. That is the intent with the 1/16 th of an inch, there is a youtube video done by John Rowland ( the creater of the round) that explains it very well. I almost 460R'd my 625-8, but ended up selling it and buying the Sig. With the revolver though you do not have to stick with the COL that us auto guys do. I have to use 1.270 as max so the rounds fit and feed. You can do this.....
With these....
I loaded these up, only to have to pull the ballistic tips out for them to feed. They work great and do enormous damage. Perfect for revolvers. You will notice they look very similar to the Hornady 460 SW rounds.
I know I have a bunch of posts int his thread, but the 460 Rowland is my favorite round, and is a blast to shoot
mstuhr
Member
Howdy,
The extra weight of the comp will help keep the pistol in battery longer allowing pressures to drop some before unlocking.
I had a heavy, five chamber Gann comp and 6" bbl on my .45. Also, along with the heavy main and recoil springs you can put a flat bottom firing pin stop/ retainer to keep it locked up a little longer.
With the hot .45's I found the magnum pistol primers to be the weak spot and ended up with cut down .308 and mag rifle primers.
I'm still not sure if it was the load or the old Argentine slide or the combo of the two that made it let go. It was something to see before it let go and worked well for sometime.
You might look into the flat bottom firing pin stop when using the Roland on your Sig. All the little things add up.
Thanks
Mike
Paul5388
US Veteran
I have already mentioned the Rowland is loaded to 40,000 CUP, which is 6,000 cup less than an original .357 Mag. SAAMI now says that .357 pressure is 35,000 psi, which would make the .460 more like 29,000-30,000 psi (if there is any reasonable way to compare the two measurements). It seems like I remember the .45 Super is 28,000 psi and it only takes spring changes to shoot in a 1911 and no changes for a M625.
According to Wiki, which may not always be dead accurate, but in this case they seem to have their facts down correctly, the 460 Rowland runs at 40K PSI-
.460 Rowland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paul5388
US Veteran
I can't seem to relocate the pressure numbers I quoted, so just consider them to be an old man's dreaming. What I did find are Glock conversions to .460 Rowland! Is the 460 available for a Glock? | .460 Rowland
Here's a short video of a guy shooting a .460 magazine thru a Glock 30.
.460 Rowland - YouTube
I get a kick out of the fact that at about the 8th round he starts looking at the pistol. I think he's hoping he's done!
Dave
.460 Rowland - YouTube
I get a kick out of the fact that at about the 8th round he starts looking at the pistol. I think he's hoping he's done!
Dave
C17
US Veteran
Now thats funny. 1911 conversions shoot just like a 45. I regularly shoot 100-200 rounds per range session with mine.
People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one
So with a compensator and heavier spring the recoil feels the same as ball? Ive toyed with getting this conversion for years.
RV4driver
US Veteran
I maintain that if you need to do this to float your boat, you've picked the wrong gun. Case in point, check out the video of the guys shooting the 60 caliber Nitro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1yzI0AIpUUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1yzI0AIpUUA
C17
US Veteran
Yes. Exactly. The only noticable difference is the report is louder. The bullet drop at 100 yards is nill. It is an amazing round.
People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one
