How old is this 38 ammunition.

[dinghysailer]

Forty odd years ago when my grandfather gave me his M&P (Shipped in 1915), he also gave me a couple of boxes of ammunition, neither in 38 Special.

The M&P (which has been seen here before)

The box of 38 long colt:

Any guesses as to how old this is? I know Remington joined Union Metallic Cartridge in 1912, so it has to be after that. I know it's not in great condition, but there are about forty cartridges in it. Any guesses as to value?

The other box is a more familiar looking green and red box of Remington Kleanbore in 38 Short Colt. I will post separately if anyone is interested.

Thanks

Allan

 

[29aholic]

I am going to say in the 20's just because it is smokeless. I have a similar UMC box of 38 S&W loaded with Dupont Balck Powder, that is a little earlier than yours.

 

[smith17]

Allan:
Based on others I have seen, I would estimate mid-teens. There was an addition of the word Incorporated under the arched company name a bit later. I have several UMC boxes from the 1902-1910 era that were smokeless so that really isn't a giveaway. Some companies sold black powder loadings up until the 2nd War.
Ed

 

[Jack Flash]

I love to see pictures of old cartridges and their boxes. Thanks for posting these excellent photos.

Two questions:

1.
The last line on the bottom of the box is
"Shells should not be reloaded."
Is that because the "shells" are balloon head cases?

2.
Do my eyes deceive me, or are those large pistol primers?

 

[BRush]

As I recall Remington and UMC had an informal arrangement for joint ammo production starting in 1912 (UMC had purchased Remington in 1888 but they remained legally seperate companys until they merged in 1916.) From 1912 until sometime in 1914 the joint company label had both the UMC red ball and the Remington logo on the top. Thereafter they used the combined Remington UMC red ball. Interestingly, the seperate company logos still appeared on one side lable after this change. The word "Incorporated" was inserted under the Company name after the merger in 1916.

Therfore, I would date this box style from 1914 at the earliest and 1916 at the latest.

I don't know why the admonition not to reload the shells appears in the Guarantee on the Smokeless powder boxes. It does not appear in the Guarantee on Rem-UMC Black Powder boxes of this period. My guess is that it is a liability issue. Not with respect to the shells but with respect the the old guns in which "hot" smokeless reloads might be discharged.

 

[glypnir]

Originally posted by BRush:
As I recall Remington and UMC had an informal arrangement for joint ammo production starting in 1912 (UMC had purchased Remington in 1888 but they remained legally seperate companys until they merged in 1916.) From 1912 until sometime in 1914 the joint company label had both the UMC red ball and the Remington logo on the top. Thereafter they used the combined Remington UMC red ball. Interestingly, the seperate company logos still appeared on one side lable after this change. The word "Incorporated" was inserted under the Company name after the merger in 1916.

Therfore, I would date this box style from 1914 at the earliest and 1916 at the latest.

I don't know why the admonition not to reload the shells appears in the Guarantee on the Smokeless powder boxes. It does not appear in the Guarantee on Rem-UMC Black Powder boxes of this period. My guess is that it is a liability issue. Not with respect to the shells but with respect the the old guns in which "hot" smokeless reloads might be discharged.

Well, dang, don't be so vague about it.

Once again the level of knowledge on this forum astounds me. I should be used to it by now.

 

[ButchG17]

Originally posted by Jack Flash:
......or are those large pistol primers?

I don't think they are, but here's one:

 

[dinghysailer]

I thought that someone here would know something, but I didn't expect quite so much detail. It's neat that the ammo is as old as the revolver. Might have even been bought at the same time.

The primers are, according to my old eyes, a strong 5/32" dia. I'll leave it to the experts here to decide whether that is large or small.

Thanks for all the input

Allan

 

[s&wchad]

Originally posted by Jack Flash:
The last line on the bottom of the box is
"Shells should not be reloaded."
Is that because the "shells" are balloon head cases?

They could have mercuric primers, or it could just be a carry over from mercuric primer days.

From Cartridges of the World :

"On firing, these compounds (mercuric priming) also release free mercury which amalgamates with the brass of the case, rendering it brittle and destroying the cohesion between the crystals. Once a cartridge case has been fired with a mercuric primer, it is ruined for further loading. Eventually the case will crack or the head will separate... When black powder was the only propellant, this phenomenon was masked by the powder fouling... As soon as smokeless powder and somewhat higher pressures appeared, the effect of mercury on the brass case immediately became a critical factor. Initially the trouble was blamed on the smokeless powder...


I have an early box of Winchester “Smokeless Powder Loads” for the .30-30 from about 1898 with a printed insert inside the box. It goes into detail about why you’ll never be able to reload smokeless powder cartridges.

I’m sure the fact that they got rich making new ammunition had nothing to do with it!

 

[digi-shots]

Great post! Thanks for the pics and all the info.

I'm always on the hunt for old ammo and ammo boxes to go with some of my vintage revolvers.

Linda
S&WCA #1965