How "real world" is competition shooting, and why do some shooters do certain things?

[Kiwi cop]

How "real world" is competition shooting, and why do some shooters do certain things?

For those who do not know, New Zealand is technically an unarmed police force. I say technically because we carry tasers on our belts and have a holstered Glock 17 in a lock box in the passengers footwell with a Bushmaster M4 in the boot of the car. Both have 2 mags, one in the gun, chamber empty, and the other in a carrier (the M4's is attached to the butt).

I started shooting pistols at club level in the early 1990's to get a bit more practice than our twice yearly qualification shoot. About 15 years ago I stopped formal competition shooting for several reasons, some financial and some due to the "equipment race". I still shot at my club at least monthly. In early 2015 an article appeared in our monthly Association newsletter. It had been written by a Senior Sergeant (Lieutenant equivalent) who had gone to a 3 day firearms and self defence training program in California. The article ended with advice to go to a local pistol club where civilian matches were shot to get some practical shooting experience for 'the job'.

Now it just so happens that my club "owns" two of the six NZ annual IPSC national grading events (it helps when the club president is the national IPSC director) plus holds at least one other each year. So I decided to get back into IPSC shooting. So far I have competed in 5 grading events including our Nationals where I got a bronze in my grade and was promoted up a grade too.

After shooting the first two events with my CZ75 clone, belt slide holster and 3 mag pouches, I bought a second hand Springfield 1911 A1 in .45 auto to shoot in Classic division. I also ordered a locally made "Wild Bunch" rig with extra mag pouches (hey, what can be more "classic" than an open top leather holster for the .45 auto). I have 5 X 8 round mags and 3 X 7 round ones. I wear 3 double mag pushes on my weak side. The first 5 take the 8 rounders and the last a 7. On my strong side is the last double pouch with 2 X 7 round mags for reloading during weak hand shooting stages.

Now I am not really in agreement with my colleague about IPSC matches being good practice for on duty encounters. One stage at our Nationals last year had you starting behind hard cover with two targets behind it. You had to drop down to shoot under the cover to get these targets. Most shooters went to the right at the beep, shooting around the hard cover at the targets on that side, then went left before coming back to the cover to go down to shoot. When I asked one why this was he replied because the timer stopped on the last shot and the time it took to get up again didn't count. Now no cop is going to leave two offenders he knows are in front of them and come back just to save a second or two. And I found several other things that were done differently.

One of these involves reloading when shooting weak hand. I have practiced using the trigger finger to drop the mag and using my strong hand to reload,(I carry my duty mag pouch in such a position that I can get to it with my weak hand if I have to), but almost every other shooter I have seen transfers the gun to the strong hand to reload and then back again to continue shooting (and most have just as many if not more mags on their belts than I do).

During my last comp one of the stages, 32 rounds, had the shooting box in a flattened U shape. It started with the loaded pistol and all mags on a table at the front bottom of the U. Hard cover ran down each side of this table and about 4 paces in front of it were two rows of targets. The top row was shoot/no shoot/shoot while the bottom row was no shoot/shoot/no shoot. Start position was about 1 1/2 paces down one side of the hard cover.

Most of the other competitors in my squad had magnets on their belts. On the beep they ran to the table, threw a couple of mags onto the magnets while picking up their gun then shot the targets in front of them using both hands before reloading off the table and moving on. I don't have magnets so I set up my gear carefully. I stacked three 8 round mags together on the left edge of the table, front upwards, with a fourth half way between them and the pistol which I loaded with a 7 rounder. The last 8 round mag I placed at the front right table corner. The other 2X 7 rounders I put on the tables back edge, I wasn't going to need them.

On the beep I ran to the table. Picking up the three stacked mags I put them in my jeans back pocket while picking up the pistol with my right hand. As soon as I was sure the mags were safely in my pocket I shot the targets in front of me strong hand only (5 A zone and a C zone) and sight alignment was 'rough' (I practice shooting unsighted out to 5 - 7 meters regularly, keeping my eyes on the target). Reloading with the next 8 round mag I headed down the right hand side of the U.

I had left the last 8 round mag so if I needed it I could pick it up while moving back to the left side of the U. As it turned out I didn't need it so left it where it was and still finished with ammo in my last mag.

Okay so in an emergency shooting you are not going to have time to stack and stage mags (you don't get a walk through to plan reloads either), but you will also not take the time to take on spare ammo while 3 bad guys are right there in front of you posing an immediate threat. You're going to start shooting as soon and as accurately as you can to stop them. And you will probably not be great at counting shots to know when to reload (the reason several competitors in my squad regularly shot dry?).

Still I am enjoying my shooting more now that I am completing again so will continue to enter competitions, especially when run by my own club.

Incidentally, during this last grading match I went from the bottom half of the grade spread to mid way through the top half and earned a silver medal in my grade, and I finished the "U" stage with 25 A zone hits. If I keep the improvement rate up I'll be the new boy in the next grade again by the end of the year.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I think the only thing competition is good for in a practical sense is that constant gun handling is good practice. But it never really simulates a gun fight.

 

[Rpg]

I suspect that these competitions are valuable for developing speed with accuracy and gun handling.

I agree that they've moved away from their practical emphasis to gamesmanship.

 

[star1]

They also add a little stress (the timer) which you don't get standing in front of some paper targets

 

[OKFC05]

No offense, but your NZ rules for IPSC don't match ANY IPSC, USPSA, or IDPA match I've ever been associated with. It sounds like a cobbled up hybrid that is less suitable for LEO practice than even an ordinary IDPA match.
IPSC/USPSA are normally more pure shooting without any defense to it. Only in the movies and USPSA can you stand in the open and shoot 32 rounds without getting shot.

IDPA has a defense component in that cover must be used when available, and around here the LEO prefer it for more nearly realistic practice that does not promote as many bad habits. It also allows reloading and clearing with both hands, as needed. IDPA has been justifiably criticized lately for so many "fine tuning" rule changes that don't always make sense at the club level, but they have been trying to eliminate "gaming" at the national events: you can't do it. As soon as you make it a game with rules, the guys that want to win the game are going to push the rules, not think about "real world."

For example, in a house clearing stage in a match, I am going to note the positions in the walk through, and then go as fast as I can through the stage. In the real world, nobody is going to rush alone into a house with 9 bad guys.

On the positive side, the LEO that shoot IDPA with us get lots of trigger time, and some stimulated stress practice that they and their associates say improves their survival skills.

P.S. Regarding your comments on the stage where you picked up gun and mags in view of targets.
On the stages where you supposedly stand there and fiddle with mags or finish the laundry, change the baby, or whatever, I always start shooting as soon as possible. I would have grabbed the gun and shot the visible targets, reloaded (I shoot Production with 10 in a mag), grabbed the spare mag(s), sticking them in a pocket while moving toward the next shooting position. By the way, IDPA does not allow the completely unrealistic trick hardware like magnetic mag holders, but requires either real duty gear or equipment that can be concealed, making it somewhat more realistic.
(USPSA CRO and IDPA match director)

PPS: I guess if you wanted to make your matches more NZ police realistic, all stages would start with the pistol in a locked box, one mag in the gun and only one spare available. Can't imagine...

 

[Kiwi cop]

No offense, but your NZ rules for IPSC don't match ANY IPSC, USPSA, or IDPA match I've ever been associated with. It sounds like a cobbled up hybrid that is less suitable for LEO practice than even an ordinary IDPA match.
IPSC/USPSA are normally more pure shooting without any defense to it. Only in the movies and USPSA can you stand in the open and shoot 32 rounds without getting shot.

IDPA has a defense component in that cover must be used when available, and around here the LEO prefer it for more nearly realistic practice that does not promote as many bad habits. It also allows reloading and clearing with both hands, as needed. IDPA has been justifiably criticized lately for so many "fine tuning" rule changes that don't always make sense at the club level, but they have been trying to eliminate "gaming" at the national events: you can't do it. As soon as you make it a game with rules, the guys that want to win the game are going to push the rules, not think about "real world."

For example, in a house clearing stage in a match, I am going to note the positions in the walk through, and then go as fast as I can through the stage. In the real world, nobody is going to rush alone into a house with 9 bad guys.

On the positive side, the LEO that shoot IDPA with us get lots of trigger time, and some stimulated stress practice that they and their associates say improves their survival skills.

P.S. Regarding your comments on the stage where you picked up gun and mags in view of targets.
On the stages where you supposedly stand there and fiddle with mags or finish the laundry, change the baby, or whatever, I always start shooting as soon as possible. I would have grabbed the gun and shot the visible targets, reloaded (I shoot Production with 10 in a mag), grabbed the spare mag(s), sticking them in a pocket while moving toward the next shooting position. By the way, IDPA does not allow the completely unrealistic trick hardware like magnetic mag holders, but requires either real duty gear or equipment that can be concealed, making it somewhat more realistic.
(USPSA CRO and IDPA match director)

PPS: I guess if you wanted to make your matches more NZ police realistic, all stages would start with the pistol in a locked box, one mag in the gun and only one spare available. Can't imagine...

No offence taken.

We follow the same IPSC rules as in the US http://www.pistolnz.org.nz/media/62758/ruleshandgun.pdf. It is our courses of fire that seem to be different.

The first match I shot last year I thought as a cop. One of the first comments I made was "The next time I go to an incident where I get a walk through will make history. It'll be the first ever". I also came close to breaking the 180 rule when I naturally turned to my left the first stage that started facing uprange (as a former supervisor I am used to standing at the rear of staff and covering the left side so I can see what they are doing).

When I said this to one of my squad mates he replied IPSC has no relevance to an on duty event. The aim is to win, not resolve the issue will minimal harm to life. IDPA certainly sounds a better format for cops, but the number who actually shoot handguns other than at qualification time is so low here.

I shoot Classic division simply to eliminate the 'arms race' aspect. Even so there are still some rule boundaries being pushed. I wouldn't mind if the race holster, magnets etc were banned but that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

As for your PPS, we are expected to stop, take out our firearms and gear up before getting to the scene of any incident that requires them. Which doesn't work when the brown stuff hits the revolving blade. But your point is noted. A gun in lock box is not readily at hand.

A few years ago one cop here turned up to a routine domestic. He entered the house to find the offender on top of the woman stabbing her. He had to run to the car, grab his Glock and return to shoot the offender, who survived (as did the victim, fortunately).

The cop was cleared by a criminal investigation and the Independent Police Conduct Authority, a civilian oversight body, but then put under the spotlight in a Code of Conduct investigation for not putting on the holster (we carry holster backing plates on our duty belts but have to slide the holster on) or hard plate body armour and taser. (It is a requirement that when we put on the Glock we have to also have a taser if available and wear the hard plate but here was simply no time for home to do so in the situation).

This has lead to the front line guys stopping to arm themselves more often when attending domestic calls than previously, a bloody good thing in my view.

And up until a year ago even the taser was locked away unless it was believed to be needed. We now carry them, if available, at all times. Having said that the taser I share along with my car malfunctioned. It is an X26 which is being phased out and so they are not going to fix it. There are a dozen of the new X2's sitting under a desk at base but we are not due to be certified with them until our current X26 certification expires. In our case that is in October. We were supposed to get the training next week but some communication wires were crossed and it has been put off again. Go figure!

But as you say, shooting gives me trigger time. And also confidence in using a handgun if I ever need it. I have a standing challenge with our firearms instructors. 24 rounds at 50 yards, 6 prone, 6 kneeling/sitting and 6 either side of a barricade (weak handed on the weak side). They keep dodging it saying they need to practice first because I shoot this stage every month or so in our Service Match. Mind you I use a 6 inch 686 to do so and I'm not even certain the Glock would actually hit the targets at that range with the ammo we use.

 

[BAM-BAM]

WOW......just WOW!!!!!!!!


Shot PPC, USPSA and IDPA over a 20-some year period........ in the end they all in the end became games...... and equipment races.

Always loved the safety walk through......... or "pre planning session"

But it is a way to get trigger time and hang out with friends and other shooters......... the "Game'rs" still drove me nuts........