How to spot a C&R S&W?

[Engine49guy]

S&W didnt stamp the S on the cylinder face or in side the stocks,

The S is likely to the far left on the heel and the owner didnt think to include it but its there.
Pre war guns had no S prefix but IMO that is an early post war example by the stocks and serial range.

 

[majspud]

The letter prefix on the butt is often substantially to the left of the numerals...

If the picture of the K frame snubnose in post #1 is the same gun in your last post, #19, the hammer spur has either broken off, or has been altered. If the hammer is original to the gun, a letter is certainly missing from the serial number, since the hammer is a short action hammer which indicates post war production for this model.

Different gun. This one is on GunBroker now; I presumed I can't post a live auction. I just asked the seller about the yoke stamp and perhaps a "S" on the heel. $695 too much?

T

 

[Göring's S&W]

If not an S, it should have a C on the butt...

 

[MtCamper]

It looks like this thread got a bit hijacked. Getting back to the original question: I'm no expert but I think BATFE uses manufacture date, not ship date. Smith only has records of the ship date so any ship date of 50 years qualifies. All the pre model guns qualify for sure and I'm thinking all flat latches qualify as of this year. Lots of other guns qualify too, even if manufactured recently if they more interest as a collector than as a shooter. There is a BATFE list but it is NOT exclusive. Basically it's up to the seller to determine if the gun qualifies and to prove it to BATFE is asked. I recommend not dealing with Class 01 FFLs who refuse to ship a C&R qualified gun to a C&R holder.

 

[cmansguns]

I find it hit or miss dealing with 01 FFL's and my 03 C & R FFL.

Some local LGS 01 will actually give a small discount when dealing with me and my C&R....reason I guess is that both parties are confident of no trouble with BATFE, both keep decent logs (or at least they know I do).

Some give no up front discount, but are more receptive to negotiation because the paperwork does seem around here at least to clear in very few minutes with a C&R, thus quicker out the door sales, especially with C&R guns that are usually "overpriced" to account for Internet selling fees, shipping 01 to 01, out-of-state laws, insurance fees, shipping costs, etc.

I agree that out-of-State 01 sellers that will not ship direct to me do not get my business and I have spoke directly with a couple but no valid reason ever mentioned...so no sale.

An 01 FFL receiving address, phone and place of business can be checked just as easily as a C&R, address, phone and validity if one desires, and I agree that my signature on a copy of my C&R can be faked just as easily as another 01 signature so I just don't see it, other than they don't want to negotiate which is OK with me....there are too many other guns out there.

 

[glowe]

I agree with you on most of your comments Charlie. I am probably more aggressive than most people. The law is on your side, so when I see something I want online, I bid on it unless specific language is posted that states they do not accept 03-FFLs. If I win the auction, I simply send my FFL and payment and wait for a reply. 95% of the auction houses do not even comment on my FFL, 4% respond to ask how I know the gun is over 50 years old. I reply with ship dates and often add how to identify that the firearm is a C&R by appearance alone, and the gun is shipped. I have had auction houses thank me for the tips and ask for more ways to ID a C&R.

The last 1% refuse and I do not pay. They may threaten me that I will not be able to bid on their future auctions, but they are already on my do not bid list. Even a few of them will reluctantly agree to send the gun rather than lose the sale.

 

[Bmlove]

I apologize but can you tell me what C&R means. Feel really dumb.

 

[Sawfish]

I apologize but can you tell me what C&R means. Feel really dumb.

Curio and Relic. No need to feel dumb. Better to ask than remain perplexed.

 

[Tjsuchy7]

C&R meaning

No problem. C&R stands for "Curio and Relic". Firearms in this class are at least 50 years old and are known for their collector or historic significance. If you do a google search on it you can find a lot more info on it, including how to get a C&R license.

 

[Tjsuchy7]

Above is a picture of my model of 1905 M&P 3rd change which I picked up at a local auction using my C&R license. It has a 6.5" barrel left over from 2nd change run, which makes it a little unique.

 

[majspud]

This one is posted under the Curio and Relics sub-forum on GunBroker. That's where I usually shop as I know if a piece is listed there, the seller knows what he has in terms of the FFL3 eligibility.

Still waiting for an answer on the serial number and the yoke markings.

T

 

[Absalom]

This one is posted under the Curio and Relics sub-forum on GunBroker. That's where I usually shop as I know if a piece is listed there, the seller knows what he has in terms of the FFL3 eligibility.

Still waiting for an answer on the serial number and the yoke markings.

T

It's not just links; the rules do not let us discuss ongoing auctions here. That's why you will likely not get a response, at least until the auction has closed.

Edit: I just realized you aren't waiting for an answer from us . Still, what I said applies regardless.

 

[cmansguns]

Realizing that I may again be assisting to "high jack" the original thread I offer some additional comments on 03 FFL's.

The 03 Curios & Relic FFL is a great tool for me but one should never assume that the seller "knows about C & R.." It remains your responsibility to conduct any transaction within the law, and maybe a little more so in the case of you holding a C&R.

The C&R comes with some US DoJ do's and don'ts, prohibited as well as authorized activities, and yes...some record keeping obligations that you can be instructed by BATF to back up at any time.

Be aware also that the 50 year old rule is on date of manufacture (see Rules)...not ship date, which does make S & W collecting sometimes needing more research before planking down your money.

See my thumbnail attachments, and by the way, whether you are a Collector with a C&R or not, one of the best bound books I ever got hold of is the NRA Museum bound book with all info needed on a page, lots of rules reprinted, and at time of copyright (2012) the Director was none other than Jim Supica...one of the original "Mr Smith & Wesson" in my opinion.

 

[Engine49guy]

Still waiting for an answer on the serial number and the yoke markings.
T

Majspud the "Standard Catalog of S&W" has a general listing of serial numbers and their approximate shipping years although the only way to know for sure is with a factory letter or ship date from Roy Jinks if you become a SWCA member.

Fixed site K frames are not my focus but any K frame M&P with an "S" prefix or no prefix was made before the C prefix so C&R eligible,
IIRC if you stay under C 500,000 you should be ok,
The D prefix came after and then they went to the alphanumeric serials Like AAA 1234 etc


The upper sideplate screw is a dead giveaway on K and N frame S&W revolvers since it was deleted around 1955 giving you a 10 year safety window.

That being said the 4 screw S&W K and N frames change to the modern 3 screw style by around 1963 so getting tighter there just using the screw in the trigger guard.

If in doubt post pics and ask until you get the hang of it.
One more thing the Model stamping in the yoke begins around 1957 so if it is not model marked its usually going to be C&R eligible but always check the serial...

Here is a short list of K target serials but be advised the ship dates are not absolute just rough guesses.

K Series K Frames (Adjustable Sight Models)

K101 – K18,731…… 1947
K18,732 – K73,121… 1948
K73,122 – K84,149……1949 140 early 4" pre 18's shipped
K84,150 – K104,047….1950
K104,048 – K136,690...1951
K136,691 – K175,637...1952
K175,638 – K210,095...1953
K210,096 – K231,255...1954
K231,256 – K266,154...1955
K266,155 – K288,988...1956
K288,989 – K317,822...1957
K317,823 – K350,547...1958
K350,548 – K386,804...1959
K386,805 – K429,894...1960
K429,895 – K468,098...1961
K468,099 – K515,478...1962
K515,479 – K553,999....1963
K555,000 – K605.877....1964
K605,878 – K658.986....1965
K658,987 – K715,996....1966
K715,997 – K779.162....1967
K779,163 – K848,781....1968
K848,782 – K946,391....1969
K946,382 – K999,999....1970

Modern 3 screw frames the serial number is going to be the clue and my guess is if you stay under K 500,000 in K target frames you are ok, at K600,000 the safety window gets alot smaller .

PS I frames and J frames use a different system altogether.

 

[DCWilson]

OK, here's another one I found. Half moon front sight, check. One line address on side, check. So Pre-48? There was no picture of the inside of the crane. Matched serial number 969486 on butt, under barrel, cylinder, and grips.

T

I have S868055, a postwar M&P snub that shipped in January of 1947. I suspect S969486 shipped in late 1947, or possibly early 1948 if it spent some time in inventory before it left the factory.

These long-action postwar snubbies were available for only a couple of years before the more common short-action variety replaced them. There is a bit of a premium to be paid for them, but I have to say that $695 sounds high by about $100-150 for the general purchaser. A collector might be willing to pay the asking price for it based on its status as a scarce variety.

 

[majspud]

Revolver does have a "S" on the heel. So 1947/1948?

T

 

[DCWilson]

Revolver does have a "S" on the heel. So 1947/1948?

T

Yes. That's about as close as you can get without a research letter from the S&W Historical Foundation.

 

[glowe]

? . . Here is a short list of K target serials but be advised the ship dates are not absolute just rough guesses.

Just a point of clarification - the K-frame list actually contains manufacturing dates and not ship dates. K-frame Masterpiece r volvers are one of the few models that can be dated by when they were made.