MaximumLawman
Member
He was every bit the domestic terrorist as Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph or Ted Kaczynski.
Hummmm..."Live" Audio of how it went down?
- Thread starter rags
- Start date
He was every bit the domestic terrorist as Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph or Ted Kaczynski.
bitstream
Member
I guess I'm just not sure I see the reason they needed to burn the place down. The moment they had him surrounded and trapped, it was over. The exigent circumstances disappeared and it turned into a pretty simple surround and wait. All they had to do was secure the cordon and call in the negotiators. Worst case is they wait a few days to talk him out or perhaps he commits suicide anyway. He certainly was not longer a threat as he'd be shot if he appeared in a window or door. He wasn't going anywhere and the cops had nothing but time to wait. I'm not arguing what the cops did was wrong, just that they really had no reason to do it and that, in my opinion, their job is to arrest their suspect first and foremost if there is any possible way to do it.
troutjunkie
Member
[QUOTE=A10 Secondly, if the officers could have taken him alive they would have. They know this is a nation of laws and LEOs are not judge, jury, and executioner.
Try telling that to the occupants of the misidentified vehicles that got shot up. Those particular officers were playing "judge, jury and executioner".
1) did he ultimately get what he deserved? Absolutely.
2) will a reward ever be given for the tip by the person who escaped? Not a chance. They knew when they offered the reward for a tip leading to "arrest and conviction", he wouldn't be taken alive, and therefore could weasel out of paying.
3) am I sick of blatant lies and cover ups by all branches of "government" from the highest office, to the city councils, to whatever the lowest office or position of "power" funded by tax dollars may be? ABSOLUTELY.
Try telling that to the occupants of the misidentified vehicles that got shot up. Those particular officers were playing "judge, jury and executioner".
1) did he ultimately get what he deserved? Absolutely.
2) will a reward ever be given for the tip by the person who escaped? Not a chance. They knew when they offered the reward for a tip leading to "arrest and conviction", he wouldn't be taken alive, and therefore could weasel out of paying.
3) am I sick of blatant lies and cover ups by all branches of "government" from the highest office, to the city councils, to whatever the lowest office or position of "power" funded by tax dollars may be? ABSOLUTELY.
Guys1911
Member
Why do the elected officials and law enforcement continually feel it is necessary to lie to the public? It seems they have lost their faith in us, and we in turn, have lost it in them.
CALIF GIRL
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The key to this discussion is found in Graham vs. Conner (1989). Objectively Reasonable is the key phrase.
The United States Supreme Court stated:
The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.
So would a another police officer in the same situation find these actions reasonable? Yes they would.
There are several cases in recent history where a barricaded suspect died inside a structure which caught fire after gas was introduced.
here are a few
Stevenson Ranch-
Deputy Sheriff Hagop Jake Kuredjian, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, California
Lake Los Angeles-
Deputy Stephen Douglas Sorensen, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, California
1974 SLA Shootout -
The Shootout on East 54th Street : Violence: Twenty years ago, the LAPD and the Symbionese Liberation Army exchanged fire at a home in South-Central. - Los Angeles Times
None of these suspects had to die inside the burning building- they made a conscious decision to either commit suicide or to stay inside a burning building.
Had they walked out of the structure with their empty hands up and surrendered, they would have been taken into custody with out harm.
The United States Supreme Court stated:
The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.
So would a another police officer in the same situation find these actions reasonable? Yes they would.
There are several cases in recent history where a barricaded suspect died inside a structure which caught fire after gas was introduced.
here are a few
Stevenson Ranch-
Deputy Sheriff Hagop Jake Kuredjian, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, California
Lake Los Angeles-
Deputy Stephen Douglas Sorensen, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, California
1974 SLA Shootout -
The Shootout on East 54th Street : Violence: Twenty years ago, the LAPD and the Symbionese Liberation Army exchanged fire at a home in South-Central. - Los Angeles Times
None of these suspects had to die inside the burning building- they made a conscious decision to either commit suicide or to stay inside a burning building.
Had they walked out of the structure with their empty hands up and surrendered, they would have been taken into custody with out harm.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I have my doubts that would have been the case with Dorner.
bitstream
Member
I'm not sure Dorner could have just walked out of the building with his hands up as you claim. They pretty much made it crystal clear they had no intention of trying to apprehend him when they lit up the news carriers and the surfer guy a few days earlier. Their intent was to execute him on sight.
There was simply no pressing reason for setting the fire when they had him trapped and could simply secure the perimeter and call in a negotiator. If that didn't pan out in a few days, then sure, end the siege however needed. At least, that would demonstrate that they tried to do things the right way.
CALIF GIRL
Member
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I disagree.
CALIF GIRL
Member
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These two incidents were with LAPD . This one was with San Bernadino County.
I disagree. I think they did things the right way. He knew what tactics would be used. His decision not to leave the structure led to his death.
Delos
Member
More mass killer laws and procedures needed?
I don't see any problem. Do we really need a law that covers "mass killer refuses to surrender" or maybe "Mass killer waiting for the sun to go down so he can make a run for it, steal another car and kill more people" instruction book.
When you have clusters of houses - police cannot shoot in the direction of a neighboring house. The Mass Killer Maniac can shoot in any direction, or run in any direction.
Hello, the sun was going down. A little more urgency here. Shoot lots of really potent tear gas and empty the biggest machine guns you have.
If the mass killer's body did not have splinters in it whoever is in charge needs some demerit points put in his file for not using big enough bullets.
I don't see any problem. Do we really need a law that covers "mass killer refuses to surrender" or maybe "Mass killer waiting for the sun to go down so he can make a run for it, steal another car and kill more people" instruction book.
When you have clusters of houses - police cannot shoot in the direction of a neighboring house. The Mass Killer Maniac can shoot in any direction, or run in any direction.
Hello, the sun was going down. A little more urgency here. Shoot lots of really potent tear gas and empty the biggest machine guns you have.
If the mass killer's body did not have splinters in it whoever is in charge needs some demerit points put in his file for not using big enough bullets.
williamlayton
Member
While "I" personaly may have agreement to his original outrage, I cannot but agree that it ended as it should have.
he could never, in a life time, extracted the revenge and reconning that he felt was deserved.
Police did it the way they should have to expedite the curing of this situation without further harm happening.
Feel for the homeowner---but it wasn't his life taken and he should have some amount of happy ending feeling about that.
Blessings
he could never, in a life time, extracted the revenge and reconning that he felt was deserved.
Police did it the way they should have to expedite the curing of this situation without further harm happening.
Feel for the homeowner---but it wasn't his life taken and he should have some amount of happy ending feeling about that.
Blessings
MaximumLawman
Member
Simple......
If anyone thinks this man was going to walk out and surrender you are sadly mistaken. He was a cop. He knew what he did and the punishment he would receive.
IN MY OPINION, this man gave up ALL his rights the first time he crossed the line and pulled the trigger. He gave up those rights when he violated the rights of those he killed and injured and the families who's lives have been forever changed.
And for those who think that he should been allowed the chance to surrender are not being honest and realistic in any way. EVERYBODY knew he had oxygen tanks! And I'm sure they could have found a few brave officers to knock or breach the door but I don't think they would have found one stupid enough!
So what are your options? Some of you quote legal examples and show concern for his rights. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? Cops don't WAIT for a killer unless there is a hostage present. They pursue or attempt to persuade the killer to give up. Or drive a SWAT truck through the front door ay which point he would have been killed anyway by return fire. And even then the bleeding would have screamed.
If it would have been your family member that was killed by this man, you would have been first in line to authorize an Abams tank be used to level the place.
A man is man when he can act responsibly and take responsibility for those actions. If a man is no longer a man because he chooses the ways of the devil, he no longer deserves due process but simply to die like an animal.
The punishment should fit the crime. And if I had been asked if I set fire to the cabin, I would have said DAMN RIGHT I DID!
IN MY OPINION, this man gave up ALL his rights the first time he crossed the line and pulled the trigger. He gave up those rights when he violated the rights of those he killed and injured and the families who's lives have been forever changed.
And for those who think that he should been allowed the chance to surrender are not being honest and realistic in any way. EVERYBODY knew he had oxygen tanks! And I'm sure they could have found a few brave officers to knock or breach the door but I don't think they would have found one stupid enough!
So what are your options? Some of you quote legal examples and show concern for his rights. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? Cops don't WAIT for a killer unless there is a hostage present. They pursue or attempt to persuade the killer to give up. Or drive a SWAT truck through the front door ay which point he would have been killed anyway by return fire. And even then the bleeding would have screamed.
If it would have been your family member that was killed by this man, you would have been first in line to authorize an Abams tank be used to level the place.
A man is man when he can act responsibly and take responsibility for those actions. If a man is no longer a man because he chooses the ways of the devil, he no longer deserves due process but simply to die like an animal.
The punishment should fit the crime. And if I had been asked if I set fire to the cabin, I would have said DAMN RIGHT I DID!
ColbyBruce
Member
Our house in the north Georgia mountains. If somebody burned it down, I would be quite upset. Various agencies and people involved would pay. That is arson, plain and simple. Burning a structure down to force someone out of it sounds like murder to me. As law abiding citizens we are all supposed to be above that, regardless of the circumstances, civilian or sworn. I agree the suspect needed to be stopped, but this was the wrong way to do it. I have been surprised at what some folks have written in this thread.
Our house in the north Georgia mountains. If somebody burned it down, I would be quite upset. Various agencies and people involved would pay. That is arson, plain and simple. Burning a structure down to force someone out of it sounds like murder to me. As law abiding citizens we are all supposed to be above that, regardless of the circumstances, civilian or sworn. I agree the suspect needed to be stopped, but this was the wrong way to do it. I have been surprised at what some folks have written in this thread.
Funny how people compare personal property with lives of the very cops that are out there everyday doing their best to protect us.
While this guy was loose everybody and their brother wanted this guy stopped. Not caught. STOPPED!! Well he got stopped and people still aren't happy.
Delos
Member
When will the media give the rest of the story?
Dorner's Las Vegas house is really nice. Is he behind in mortgage payments?
Photo Gallery | Murder Suspect Dorner's Las Vegas House | Southwest News
Eventually this will be part of the story. A beautiful 265,000 dollar Las Vegas house was no doubt part of his loses. (Why would someone living and working in Los Angeles buy an expensive house in Las Vegas?)
Mountain manhunt for ex-cop accused of killing 3 | ksl.com
(About 24 paragraphs down)
Dorner said in his online rant that after his dismissal that he lost everything, including his relationships with his mother, sister and close friends.
Dorner's Las Vegas house is really nice. Is he behind in mortgage payments?
Photo Gallery | Murder Suspect Dorner's Las Vegas House | Southwest News
Eventually this will be part of the story. A beautiful 265,000 dollar Las Vegas house was no doubt part of his loses. (Why would someone living and working in Los Angeles buy an expensive house in Las Vegas?)
Mountain manhunt for ex-cop accused of killing 3 | ksl.com
(About 24 paragraphs down)
Dorner said in his online rant that after his dismissal that he lost everything, including his relationships with his mother, sister and close friends.
"After milder tear gas failed to bring Dorner out, deputies shot pyrotechnic tear gas canisters into the cabin...." abclocal.go.com
"....they eventually used heavy machinery to peel back walls and windows to see if they could see Dorner, who used smoke bombs to obscure their view. They eventually resorted to incendiary tear gas...." huffingtonpost.com
" An autopsy on Christopher Dorner, 33, found he was killed by a single shot to the head, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Captain Kevin Lacy told a news conference. Authorities have not yet determined who fired that fatal round.
"The information we have seems to indicate that the wound that took Christopher Dorner's life was self inflicted," Lacy said." Reuters
"But despite losing a central piece of her family's history, Martin said she feels like one of the luckier players in the tragic, week-long drama surrounding the massive manhunt for Dorner.
"Martin bought the Seven Oaks Cabins in 2005 as a getaway for her family and with the intent to rent out the six smaller cabins on the property, which has been featured in movies and television shows
"I'm not the worst victim," she said. "The one's are the families who lost their loved ones. Even my daughter said, 'Mom, it's a cabin. It's not a life.'"nbclosangles.com
"....they eventually used heavy machinery to peel back walls and windows to see if they could see Dorner, who used smoke bombs to obscure their view. They eventually resorted to incendiary tear gas...." huffingtonpost.com
" An autopsy on Christopher Dorner, 33, found he was killed by a single shot to the head, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Captain Kevin Lacy told a news conference. Authorities have not yet determined who fired that fatal round.
"The information we have seems to indicate that the wound that took Christopher Dorner's life was self inflicted," Lacy said." Reuters
"But despite losing a central piece of her family's history, Martin said she feels like one of the luckier players in the tragic, week-long drama surrounding the massive manhunt for Dorner.
"Martin bought the Seven Oaks Cabins in 2005 as a getaway for her family and with the intent to rent out the six smaller cabins on the property, which has been featured in movies and television shows
"I'm not the worst victim," she said. "The one's are the families who lost their loved ones. Even my daughter said, 'Mom, it's a cabin. It's not a life.'"nbclosangles.com
Alk8944
US Veteran
And your point, and agenda, posting this was what???
For millennia the use of fire to overcome resistance during a siege has been common. The Police have an obligation to the public to end a situation like this for the safety of the public. It is clear from transmissions recorded on this U-Tube video that Dorner had every opportunity, even after the fire began, to walk out of the house/cabin with his hands in the air and surrender! He did not, but from all reports chose to instead commit suicide by shooting himself in the head. He did not die as a direct result of the fire!
The Fire Department was held back from the fire scene for their own safety, since it was unknown at that time if Dorner was still a threat. This is also common practice.
For whoever conjectured that the cabin owner had insurance, maybe, maybe not. There are two specific exclusions on the typical ISO HO-3 Form Homeowners policy or DP-1, 2, or 3 Dwelling Fire policies for rental properties. First are losses as a result of "acts of war", and second "Government Action". There can be little argument that loss of the building was a direct result of government action, regardless if the fire was deliberate or unintentional. Their recourse will be through the State of California for restitution, through the courts if necessary.
Bottom line, SO WHAT???????
If someone else responded similarly in posts 51-77 I apologize, I couldn't take all the BS being laid down in too many of the first 50. and didn't read them.
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MaximumLawman
Member
I could see you being upset if you lost irreplaceable family mementos in a house fire....But...Come on. If the government burned down that house, it would be like hitting the lotto. You would recoup more than the house is worth, other than the family history. I mean, seriously? Are you going to tell me there's anything special about the craftsmanship or history in that house? Drywall, composite wood and fiberboard? As far as "arson" maybe you should read up on the elements of that particular crime. I love how people throw around the terms when it comes to crimes without having any idea of what they mean. Each crime has ELEMENTS. If you don't have all of the elements, you don't have the crime. Burning down the house in this case didn't even come close to the crime of Arson.
OP
That's easy! Since this wasn't being reported by anyone, it was to bring this "obviously compelling audio" to our Forum and get your thoughts on the matter. Thanks for your participation.... AND my guess is that you wouldn't know about ALL the things you just expressed to us, had I not started this thread.
Your welcome.
