Hunting ammo for self/home defense?

[SCAR333]

Is it safe to say that hunting ammo could be used for self defense? I realize that in a pinch, any ammo could be used for self defense, but would hunting ammo (specifically Winchester Power Point 55g Varmint ammo or 64g deer rounds in .223) be adequate?

I am talking AR15 ammo, whether that be .223 or 5.56. Thanks.

 

[oneounceload]

Why would you think it couldn't be?

 

[SCAR333]

Why would you think it couldn't be?

I assumed it could, but figured it would not hurt a thing to check...

 

[Arik]

It would work but you'd be better off with actual self defense ammo. I have no idea about that Winchester ammo but hunting ammo is typically designed for deeper penetration. Some of the ammo can be interchanged

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[mauser9]

Am sure it would mess up a crooks day pretty bad!

 

[lrrifleman]

@SCAR333,

I would suspect that you could use hunting ammo for self defense, but I would have concerns about bullet performance and how the choice of hunting ammo might be used against me in the criminal and civil trials that would definitely follow!

From what I have read, bullets constructed for varmint hunting tend to expand with "explosive" results. Hunting ammo is designed to penetrate deep and destroy vital organs in game. I would anticipate that any prosecutor looking for a conviction would try to twist these facts into the defendant wanting to inflict a higher degree of damage, and potentially twist a self defense scenario into a stalking and hunting scenario, making the defendant the bad guy.

In a civil trial, if one is launched by either the "victim" of your "self defense" action (or their survivors) will try to paint the blackest picture of you, because you not only assaulted their loved one needlessly, but did so to inflict the most injury and pain by your choice of ammunition. Remember, in our current society, the gang member cherubs from the local boy's choir were on their way home from practice when you ambushed them.

Personally, I would steer away from hunting style ammunition and use either ammo made for self defense or run of the mill every day range ammo that has proven itself reliable. I would not want to make a judgment against me easy to obtain.

Remember, the self defense scenario doesn't stop when you pull the trigger, it is just getting started!

 

[NYlakesider]

My best friend until he died always kept his mid 70s Ruger .44 Mag carbine handy for house defense. It was loaded with 240 grain soft point ammo, the same ammo he hunted deer with.

He was a very good shot and we both saw the damage done by that load.

I feel that he was well armed, with a gun he was very comfortable with.

 

[Arik]

My best friend until he died always kept his mid 70s Ruger .44 Mag carbine handy for house defense. It was loaded with 240 grain soft point ammo, the same ammo he hunted deer with.

He was a very good shot and we both saw the damage done by that load.

I feel that he was well armed, with a gun he was very comfortable with.

Certain calibers are more on speed then others. A 44mag from a 16 inch barrel will mess up just about anything regardless of the bullet's construction. Kinda like shooting a cannon ball. Doesn't matter what it's made of or what it hits.

While in other calibers construction and speed does matter

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[Rpg]

The difference between hunting ammo and self defense ammo is primarily a marketing distinction. The issue is what beasts the hunting ammo is designed for.

The ammo OP proposes is designed for varmints: very small animals weighing a few pounds.

In other words, a fragile bullet offering little penetration with explosive expansion.

I've seen deer shot with this type of ammo: gruesome surface wounds that don't penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs and insufficient bullet integrity to break bones. Very poor stuff for self defense or hunting larger game.

OP would do better with hunting ammo designed for game weighing 125+ pounds.

 

[SCAR333]

@SCAR333,

I would suspect that you could use hunting ammo for self defense, but I would have concerns about bullet performance and how the choice of hunting ammo might be used against me in the criminal and civil trials that would definitely follow!

From what I have read, bullets constructed for varmint hunting tend to expand with "explosive" results. Hunting ammo is designed to penetrate deep and destroy vital organs in game. I would anticipate that any prosecutor looking for a conviction would try to twist these facts into the defendant wanting to inflict a higher degree of damage, and potentially twist a self defense scenario into a stalking and hunting scenario, making the defendant the bad guy.

In a civil trial, if one is launched by either the "victim" of your "self defense" action (or their survivors) will try to paint the blackest picture of you, because you not only assaulted their loved one needlessly, but did so to inflict the most injury and pain by your choice of ammunition. Remember, in our current society, the gang member cherubs from the local boy's choir were on their way home from practice when you ambushed them.

Personally, I would steer away from hunting style ammunition and use either ammo made for self defense or run of the mill every day range ammo that has proven itself reliable. I would not want to make a judgment against me easy to obtain.

Remember, the self defense scenario doesn't stop when you pull the trigger, it is just getting started!

I am glad that you said this. I never even thought about the ramifications of the actual purpose of the hunting ammunition itself. I actually thought of this when somebody recommended the Zombie ammo, but never gave it a thought with the hunting ammo. Thank you for this.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

@SCAR333,

I would suspect that you could use hunting ammo for self defense, but I would have concerns about bullet performance and how the choice of hunting ammo might be used against me in the criminal and civil trials that would definitely follow!

From what I have read, bullets constructed for varmint hunting tend to expand with "explosive" results. Hunting ammo is designed to penetrate deep and destroy vital organs in game. I would anticipate that any prosecutor looking for a conviction would try to twist these facts into the defendant wanting to inflict a higher degree of damage, and potentially twist a self defense scenario into a stalking and hunting scenario, making the defendant the bad guy.

In a civil trial, if one is launched by either the "victim" of your "self defense" action (or their survivors) will try to paint the blackest picture of you, because you not only assaulted their loved one needlessly, but did so to inflict the most injury and pain by your choice of ammunition. Remember, in our current society, the gang member cherubs from the local boy's choir were on their way home from practice when you ambushed them.

Personally, I would steer away from hunting style ammunition and use either ammo made for self defense or run of the mill every day range ammo that has proven itself reliable. I would not want to make a judgment against me easy to obtain.

Remember, the self defense scenario doesn't stop when you pull the trigger, it is just getting started!

What ammo would you recommend to the OP that would not result in such an attack by the survivors and their lawyers?

 

[federali]

No FMJ

I really don't think it matters what .223 round you would use against a human target. The outcome is likely to the be the same.
As I live in a suburban environment with close neighbors, I won't use anything likely to penetrate wood frame/sheetrock walls to reach those neighbors. That includes .45 ACP ball.

I'm not aware of any case in which the type of ammo became an issue at trial. Citizens have used .30-06s, 12 gauge slugs, buckshot etc. You can't kill someone just a little bit. If justified, you can run someone over with an 18-wheel semi.

 

[oneounceload]

.223 at SD/HD distances, regardless of the bullet, will put a hurt on any BG where the distance to target is measured in feet, not yards. And those 64 gr. designed for deer would do nicely.......

 

[BAM-BAM]

I would not want to be on the receiving end of a 158gr .357 out of either of my 16/18 inch .357 carbines.... a Winchester Trapper and a Ruger 77/357

 

[iPac]

I have no problem with "hunting" bullets being used for self defense. However, I think more along the lines of handgun calibers, not rifle or carbine calibers.

I carry homebrew 140gr. XTP magnum loads in my EDC. Those are "hunting" bullets. I lose little sleep over possible legal issues if I would have to deploy those rounds.

If you have to defend yourself, you have to defend yourself. I think there is more worrying than needs to be over ammo choice legality.

 

[DWalt]

Much ado about nothing. I have never heard of even a single case wherein the use of "hunting" ammunition in any justifiable self-defense shooting situation resulted in adverse consequences for the shooter. It just will not happen, and is the very last thing anyone should be concerned about.

 

[handejector]

Yeah, ya need to worry about that civil action!
Just point it at them and yell "Bang-Bang".
But don't yell it too loud or too many times because that could be construed as seeking to inflict unnecessary harm.

 

[Arik]

.223 at SD/HD distances, regardless of the bullet, will put a hurt on any BG where the distance to target is measured in feet, not yards. And those 64 gr. designed for deer would do nicely.......

You don't want it to "put a hurt" you want it to end whatever it is asap. Plenty of people have proven they can take "a hurt" and keep going

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[lrrifleman]

What ammo would you recommend to the OP that would not result in such an attack by the survivors and their lawyers?

Honestly, I would go with factory loaded GI style FMJ such as M193. It meets the parameters of the Geneva Accords, it is designed to disable and not maim, and it tends to be reliable. If you look at some of the "results" of M193 during 'Nam, that light 55gr bullet tumbles easy when it is "deflected", and does its own version of "pinball wizard" when it hits bone "... round and round she goes, where she'll come out, nobody knows ..."

 

[WR Moore]

In handgun calibers, hunting ammo is generally loaded with bullets that generate significant penetration. Far beyond the average size evil doer.

Someone mentioned drywall penetration. I built a small interior wall and verified that about the only thing that won't pass through an interior wall is a .177 pellet at about 300 f/s. EVERYTHING else had sufficient velocity to cause death or serious bodily injury. Never tried multiple walls.

In .223/5.56 mm, the light (40-50 gr) varmint type bullets penetrate less building material than most defensive/duty type handgun ammo. [See above paragraph and FBI ammo tests] You should know that the AR pattern rifles (and especially Mforgeries) were never designed with soft nosed ammo in mind. There are some exceptions designed for the purpose. Hollow points and the plastic tipped bullets seem to work well in general and plastic tips seem to be the trend in duty type ammo for the ARs.

That said, should you have to penetrate chance barriers (limbs of the body, interior doors etc) or have a supersized aggressor, you may not get enough penetration with the light bullets. Several ammo makers suggest ammo in the 60-75 grain weight as optimal. YMMV. The range is close, do a lot of practicing so a miss is unlikely and make sure you know your safe fields of fire in the home and use the most effective conventional ammo you can find. Leave the magic bullets to magicians.

M193 does tend to break up in tissue at <160 meters or so. However, it has a massive downside should it pass through the evil doer or you miss or the bullet defects from something. You'll get pilloried for using ammunition you had good reason to know would over penetrate and present a danger to others. A range instructor verified that it will pass completely through a pine 6x6. Leave that stuff for practice, unless you really want to give one (or more) of your neighbors your house and a substantial chunk of your retirement & future earnings.