Hunting with a 29/629 vs Ruger Hawks

[BigBill]

I wont say the exact over load I was using at the time in my ruger super black hawk but I had 12" of flames out of both sides of the cylinder and 15" of flame out the barrel. BBQ anyone. I didn't load too many of these.
But the SBH ate everyone. This was in the 70's no bigger bores were around. The 44 mag was the biggest at that time. We were talking at the LGS about how much higher we could load the SBH. Like I said I won't say but the SBH is one strong revolver. It's the quality of the steel that ruger is using. It's said they use steel from Carpenter Steel.

I loaded the 357 mag/ 125gr JHP to the limit specs by the book. It performed well in my Python and police service six. I calmed down through the years and found the 357/140gr JHP to be very accurate out to 100yds with a 6" barrel. It's a comfortable load to shoot using 2400 powder.

The 44 mag I used the 240gr JHP with 2400 powder but my ccw load is the Speer 200 gr JHP.

Hunting I perfer soft points. I butchered a bear and found a perfect 30 cal bullet in his butt. Someone hit him in the butt. Stupid hunters. I'm thinking the JHP won't penetrate deep like the SP does. That's another post.

I been hearing about the 44/300 JHP/ JHP bullets and the 45lc /300 gr JHP/JSP bullets. I been buying some every chance I get to reload them. I have a 10.5" SBH. My buddy swears by the leadcast 300gr bullets in his 444 marlin.

 

[BigBill]

Yup.....

Im a expert welder and I don't think I can fix that. It's a paper weight that tells a story.

I'm lucky I made it through my Tim Allen years were more power the better.

 

[BigBill]

I fear nothing on this planet. But,,,,,

I got hung up in the thick pines once and what ever is was sounded like it was up rooting trees to get away from me. I had a 44mag side arm but if it came my way it was a 10' shot if that. I remember seeing the 30 cal bullet in the bears butt. I switched my 30-06 to a 338wm. I shouldn't of been in those thick pines. These bordered the apple orchard were fresh claw marks were found.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Yup.....

Looks like one stuck in the pipe. No wonder it blew up.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Question for you more experienced hands: Can the Rugers REALLY safely digest a steady diet of loads over max SAAMI spec or is it that they are able to digest max SAAMI spec loads of heavy for caliber bullets???

I have only been reloading for about 4 years, but I know enough to know that increasing charge weight does not increase pressure on a linear scale, but that it goes up rather quickly once you reach a certain point. I can't understand why anyone but the most calculating and highly experienced reloaders would want to load above and beyond safe published load levels unless one has the equipment to test actual pressures that are produced.

I agree with the posts that recommend a more powerful cartridge rather than playing around in the red-zone with handloads in a 44 mag no matter what brand the revolver is.

But then again, the OP admitted to being a "recoil wuss" (and nothing wrong with admitting that BTW) so why pursue these types of loads in the first place?

My first recommendation would be a S&W 460. He can warm up to recoil using stout (Ruger spec) 45 Colt loads, which I would expect to be easy shooters from an X-frame. Then move up to 454 Casulls, and if that still isn't enough run legit 460 Mag loads. If the X-frame is just too big and bulky, a 454 chambered Ruger would do everything he is looking to do in a smaller package, but will be more punishing to shoot running legit 454 loads due to the smaller/lighter package.

I own a 460V and have fired nothing but legit 460 loads from it. Stout, yes. But not impossible to manage. I can print paper plate size groups at 50yds with it, no optics, just open sights. It DOES get to you after 15 or 20 rounds though.

 

[Warren Sear]

I fear nothing on this planet. But,,,,,

I got hung up in the thick pines once and what ever is was sounded like it was up rooting trees to get away from me. I had a 44mag side arm but if it came my way it was a 10' shot if that. I remember seeing the 30 cal bullet in the bears butt. I switched my 30-06 to a 338wm. I shouldn't of been in those thick pines. These bordered the apple orchard were fresh claw marks were found.

You said before that you were afraid of sasquatch/big foot.

 

[BigBill]

Afraid of bigfoot no way. Never.

 

[Triathloncoach]

FOLLOW-UP. I guess I was kinda sorta looking for a reason why I had to buy a Blackhawk when I really wanted a 29. My Redhawk will have to do. Today I bought M Conrads 29-5. . I have a bunch of Evil Black Rifles. Photo - some have gone, some have arrived since. I sold many of my handguns last year anticipating the Hildabeast as President. Now I have a few Glock 19s, a 5906TSW the Redhawk, Mod 28-2, 29-5, badly reblued 17-2. And a wife who asks no questions.

 

[twodog max]

As I have gotten older and hopefully somewhat smarter i figured out that the need for wrist breaker handgun loads has mostly evaporated. I load for power enough but accuracy and comfort for extended shooting are more important these days. If I need more power than these loads give, has not ever happened, I will get a rifle out.
The belief that the Redhawk platform is stronger the the S&W N frames has been out there since the Redhawks were introduced. To my knowledge this has never been tested in a controlled situation. I have to wonder if this may be fact or myth. If anyone knows of any testing tell me of it. I have seen plenty of pictures of blown up Redhawks also so they are not idiot proof.

 

[bearman49709]

What's is interesting is that the 45 Colt will do what a 44 magnum does and do it with quite a bit less pressure . John Linebaugh , in his article " Dissolving the Myth " states that the difference is between 6000-10000 cup less pressure .
John Linebaugh has written quite an article about this ,even going into heavy bullets in the 45 , 300 grs and beyond . He has load data showing a 310 gr cast bullet doing over 1300fps at 30,000 cup . If you want something for " bigger game " . I believe that one would do it , instead of trying to " hotrod " the 44 magnum , IMO . Regards , Paul

Lets see if I got this right.
Hotrod .44 magnum not good.
Hotrod .45 Colt good?

 

[sw282]

Been shooting IHMSA silhouettes since it started in the late 70s. Back

then there was Smith and Ruger in 44 Magnum. Fast forward 40 years

IHMSA is dominated by Freedom Arms.. A few of us shoot S&W. This past

year l have seen just ONE Ruger. Twas a Super Redhawk in 44 Magnum.

lt shot HORRIBLY for him all season.. He finally gave up on the thing and

got a Freedom Arms.. His scores are much lmproved.. The Ruger is built

like a TANK. Question, ''What good is a TANK if you can't hit ANYTHING''??

 

[cowboy4evr]

bearman 49709 , If you read John Linebaughs article all the way through , you will see that his hottest 45Colt load does not go beyond 32,000 cup . He had his loads pressure tested .
He is an authority on the 45 Colt , an accomplished self taught gun smith and the creator of several calibers , 475 and 500 Linebaugh . I will wrap this post up by saying that " he is not hotrodding the 45 Colt " . Just showing it's potential vs 44 magnum . Simply put-- " Read the article " , then decide .

 

[Triathloncoach]

Gonna check out Freedom Arms. I am not familiar with them.
But if it's not Smith & Wesson it's ****!!!

Ps. 8 1/2 month backorder. ��

 

[iPac]

Gonna check out Freedom Arms. I am not familiar with them.
But if it's not Smith & Wesson it's ****!!!

Ps. 8 1/2 month backorder. ��

Just simply not true, and you shouldn't hold that philosophy. There are many other guns out there just as good or better than S&Ws.

I know what you meant though.

Freedom Arms are one them, check them out. If they made a DA to the same standard and it was attractive, I would probably buy one. I just don't have much use for SAs. Got a Colt, but it will be up for sale really soon.

In all honesty, if "hunting" means whitetail deer hunting, then I'm perfectly comfortable with a 357mag. Don't see the need to bump up to 44mag. Lighter weight gun and less recoil, yet terminally effective at handgun distances.

 

[k22fan]

[...] The belief that the Redhawk platform is stronger the the S&W N frames has been out there since the Redhawks were introduced. To my knowledge this has never been tested in a controlled situation. I have to wonder if this may be fact or myth. If anyone knows of any testing tell me of it. I have seen plenty of pictures of blown up Redhawks also so they are not idiot proof.

While it was not intended to compare Ruger cylinders to N frame cylinders, Ruger's first .454 Super Redhawk has a cylinder made from their standard stainless steel. It has held up for thousands of rounds. Despite that, to maintain a larger safety margin Ruger adopted a stronger steel for .454 Casull and .480 Ruger cylinders. The first place S&W cylinders with an even number of chambers permanently distort as pressure is raised too high is the bottom of their stop notches. That can be seen as dimples on the sides of the chamber walls. A friend who had access to the measuring tools at work measured the thickness of the steel at the bottom of his Model 25-5 .45 Colt's cylinder stop notches. He got 0.017". Newer cylinders with the endurance package's longer stop notches extended the thin section. I would not want to test if that thin area would yield to the .454 Casull's 65,000 psi (Maximum Average Pressure per SAAMI).

By the way, stainless Redhawk and Super Redhawk .44 Magnum cylinders have the the same part number.

 

[steelslaver]

On the 45 colt part of the discussion.
A factory 45 colt is around 14000 psi, kept this way because of the many very old 45 colts around. Same thing with 44 specials.

A 45 colt hand loaded to around 22-23000 psi is a whole different animal than a factory load. There is no good reason the S&W 45 colts cant take 23,000 psi which is the same pressure as the 45acp +P rounds fired in the same models using 45 acp cylinders with the same cylinder and the same sized cylinder chambers.
Not hotrodding so much as taking a old round up to its potential in a modern firearm.

A .452 255gr bullet at 1000fps isn't giving up much to a smaller .429 240 gr bullet at 1200fps. to use the same analogy I used above the 44 mag is a small block Chevy V8 dropped on you from 12" and a 45 colt is a big block Ford 460 dropped on you from 10".

Nothing you should be shooting with a handgun, including bear, is going to know the difference between a decent shot from either.

Way more things can effect the outcome than a couple of hundred fps or 20 or so gr of bullet.

A couple hundred fps can have decent effects in down range ballistic in round fired over 200 yds or more. Without alot of practice and well setup equipment nobody should be hunting big game with handguns over 100 yds.

 

[BigBill]

The difference between the calibers is if the caliber isn't big enough we have to track down a wounded bear. If the caliber is big enough we drop the bear on the spot. Plus I'm not built for running nor speed. I don't climb trees too.

For years we had a elusive buck in vt, estimated at 300lbs with a unknown rack point wise but probably a new b&c record. He would stay beyond 100 yards. He was like a ghost. I never had a chance to pull the trigger. Reminds me of the Charles Bronson movie White Buffalo. My scope has BDC bullet drop compilation out to 500yds. With no error you dope the scope. I put these scopes on my rifles just for him.
Of course back home I had a silicate sized buck come out of the water shed at 3pm in the afternoon he had many does with him. He was preoccupied. He was 40ft from me when I whistled, he stopped, froze long enough then walked away slowly. Not hunting season yet. Good to let him go and spread his dna more.

 

[adluginb]

This link Big Bore Revolver | Cody | John Linebaugh Custom Sixguns

Shows at what cup Rugers and Smiths are destroyed at.

 

[bearman49709]

bearman 49709 , If you read John Linebaughs article all the way through , you will see that his hottest 45Colt load does not go beyond 32,000 cup . He had his loads pressure tested .
He is an authority on the 45 Colt , an accomplished self taught gun smith and the creator of several calibers , 475 and 500 Linebaugh . I will wrap this post up by saying that " he is not hotrodding the 45 Colt " . Just showing it's potential vs 44 magnum . Simply put-- " Read the article " , then decide .

If you go over SAAMI spec's your "hotroding" it and 32,000 cup is over that.
So once again whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Those SAAMI spec's go back to the days of black powder and the SAA Colts . The 44 special has even lower SAAMI spec's , It also began life as a black powder cartridge . In it's early yrs the 45 colt cases had very thin walls and the old style ballon heads . Modern day cases are much stronger . I believe it's Starline that advertises their cases are tested to 44 magnum pressures , 40,000 cup as stated by John Linebaugh . I suggest you read Brian Pierce's articles of loading and shooting the 45 Colt in Handloader magazine . I definitely would not consider him a " hot rodder " .

 

[one eye joe]

If someone wants more power than standard 44 Magnum, they can move on to a 460 or 500 S&W. No need to stoop to Ruger.

LOL, WARREN. ITS OK---RUGER FIREARMS ARE RESPECTABLE WEAPONS. IF THE POSTER WAS CONSIDERING GOING TO A TAURUS FIREARM--IT WOULD BE A DESCENT INTO HELL, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE......

I HAVE A 4", MODEL 629, MOUNTAIN GUN, THAT IS PERFECT FOR CARRYING IN THE WOODS, FOR PROTECTION, WHILE FISHING IN BIG BEAR COUNTRY. A CYLINDER, OR TWO, OF HEAVY BONE SMASHING SOLIDS, FROM ONE OF THE "BOUTIQUE" AMMO SHOPS, WILL NOT DO ANY LASTING DAMAGE TO THE S&W.......

IF I WAS GOING NORTH, TO PURPOSEFULLY HUNT BIG MOOSE, BIG BROWNS, OR GRIZZ, I WOULD CARRY A LONGER BARRELED RUGER, AND SHOOT THE SNOT OUT OF IT, WITH MY HUNTING LOADS, TO GET ZEROED IN AT PREDICTED HUNTING RANGES......

SO YEAH---YOU NEED TWO .44 MAG REVOLVERS IN YOUR ARSENAL, TO OPTIMIZE YOUR GAME. IS THAT A PROBLEM ? ? ? (IF IT IS, JUST TELL YOUR WIFE THAT ONE EYE JOE MADE YOU DO IT....lol)

 

[Teleman1952]

I am a fan of Ruger 44's. I have a Super Blackhawk and a Redhawk. Both are very strong handguns. Never owned a S&W 29 (but do have a 586 and 4 M&P's) so I can't make a comparison. I use H110 for my handloads and never go above Hodgdon's recommended maximum load of 24.0 grains with a 240 grain JHP. Both of my Rugers can handle this load without any problem. The velocity of this load is listed at 1522 fps at the muzzle. I don't see the need to try to push them any faster nor would I want to for safety's sake.

 

[BigBill]

Btw, I stopped carrying a side arm most of the time when I purchased the 338wm. With 4K foot pounds @ muzzle and 2700 foot pounds at 200yds that's the muzzle energy of a '06 @ 200yds do I need a handgun? Benchrested at 100 yds I put two bullets through the same hole.

 

[BigBill]

I am a fan of Ruger 44's. I have a Super Blackhawk and a Redhawk. Both are very strong handguns. Never owned a S&W 29 (but do have a 586 and 4 M&P's) so I can't make a comparison. I use H110 for my handloads and never go above Hodgdon's recommended maximum load of 24.0 grains with a 240 grain JHP. Both of my Rugers can handle this load without any problem. The velocity of this load is listed at 1522 fps at the muzzle. I don't see the need to try to push them any faster nor would I want to for safety's sake.

The 24grs is a light load when compared to my loads. You should be safe with your load. I don't load hot loads anymore just normal magnum loads within specs. No more off the chart stuff

 

[jmclfrsh]

I prefer the look of a Model 29 over any Ruger, hands down. It simply is a beautiful design in my book.

And since I can load .44 Magnuums hot enough to accomplish whatever I need to, without even going to 1450-1500 f.p.s., a 29 works for me.

I prefer not to slam my guns continually with hot loads, I don't feel the need to. So I might be in a minority but I load for accuracy between 1200-1300 f.p.s. and I'll stick with my Models 29 and 57.

And when I'm not shooting them, I enjoy just looking at them. Myself, I can't get that with a Ruger.

Blame it on Harry Callahan!

 

[shawn mccarver]

I read that either Ruger Hawk model 44 Mags can handle higher pressure loads than the Smith & Wesson's. If true, does this translate into real world benefits in hunting or defensive loads against large predators? I reside in Georgia and live in constant fear of Grizzly/Polar Bear attack. . And I'm from NJ so of course I have never hunted. But I'd like to fire some hot 44 Mags.

Thanks
Frank

The S&W revolver worked fine for Uncle Elmer, and no one ever accused him of using "sissy loads." The 250 grain Keith bullet over 22 grains of 2400 seemed to do fine in his 29s, and they were decades before the "endurance package." Remember, Ruger is thicker, but there has always been a "gentlemen's disagreement" about whether leaner forged or thicker cast is stronger. I am not sure, but I am completely comfortable with the S&W N Frame 44 Magnum for the purposes which you describe. It is not that I dislike Ruger. They are very fine revolvers, but for my purposes, the S&W N Frame does for me nicely.

As to the "gentlemen's disagreement," the text here has some interesting information:

 

[jmclfrsh]

Nice touch. That ad shows us that history repeats itself, once again.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Whether it's a Smith and Wesson , or a ruger all firearms have their limitations as to how much abuse they will take . I'm a real Smith fan , that said I have 2 rugers also , one in 41 mag , the other in 45 Colt . I bought them because I wanted a couple of single actions in 2 of my favorite calibers , not because I can load them " hot " and try to destroy them .

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Dovetailing with cowboy4ever's post, my thought is that wear and tear is wear and tear and it's only a matter of time. Design, construction, and load levels do effect how much time it takes to wear a firearm out.

I still say that max published 44mag loads are more than adequate and any S&W 29/629 in good condition would last the average guy two lifetimes if he takes halfway good care of it. You won't shoot your S&W into oblivion after 1000rds of max PUBLISHED loads. Maybe a SRH would last three lifetimes with said loads??? IDK..but over max will only accelerate the rate of wear and tear. A firearm is a mechanical device, and all mechanical devices are subject to wear and tear over time. No device is exempt from this, not even a Ruger

 

[BruceM]

I am planing on making some loads for my 44 mag in a super red hawk. Using 240gr cast bullets and 296 power any one out there come up with a maximum load for this combination?

There are only about a jillion on-line and print sources for this information.

Lets see if I got this right.
Hotrod .44 magnum not good.
Hotrod .45 Colt good?

Yep, there is that little thing called linear thought processes that comes into play.

Can the Rugers REALLY safely digest a steady diet of loads over max SAAMI spec

This IS a troubling thought process in the justification for Ruger over Smith & Wesson, isn't it? Wanting to fire ammo utilizing bullets heavier than 250 grains makes a little more sense but a gun chambered in something like .460 or .500 then looks even better. How about .480 Ruger in a Ruger?

Had a 9 1/2" .44 magnum Super Redhawk. It was a good gun. Unfortunately it was extra heavy with a clunky action and, IMHO, butt ugly. It also wouldn't do anything that my 8 3/8" S&W M629-2 wouldn't with SAAMI level ammo using bullets 250 grains and less. Therefore, the Ruger went down the road.

So, if you're one of those folks who feels compelled to color outside the lines with out of spec., over pressure +P, +P+ or whatever factory or handloaded ammo you can dream up, go for it with the Ruger if it makes you feel better. The Rugers may provide longer design lives with conventional magnum ammo before requiring service BUT for about 95% of owner's, it's a moot point. At that point, I opt for a better looking and balancing gun with a better trigger-the Smith.

Bruce