I.D. S&W Hand ejector help?

[tombelll]

Need help to ID a Smith with no apparent model # visable.
It's a hand ejector
.38 s&w special
I think it's a 5 screw??(4 + 1 in front of trigger guard
I thought it was a Victory model but it has wrong serial # for that.
Serial # is 875008


Photos submitted:

Thank You!

 

[Truckman]

With that S/N, it's definitely WWII production, 1940-45...No V in front of the digits?......Ben

 

[tombelll]

Thanks for the quick reply and your service Sir.

So the Model is a 10??

No V in front of Serial#.

Gun was my Dad's also a Vet WWII USMC 3rd Div.

 

[JP@AK]

No, it isn't a Model 10. Those didn't appear until 1958.

The Navy started buying S&W revolvers under contract in early 1941. The serial sequence that began in 1899 was still being used. Many would refer to your revolver as a "pre-Victory" model. The V prefix didn't go into use until April, 1942. Yours would have been purchased by the military before that. The United States Property mark on the top strap is an indication that this revolver was owned/used by the U.S. military during WWII. It also probably means it was not part of the early Navy contract.

There are those here who can give you a pretty close estimate as to when it was purchased.

Edit: I just checked my list - yours is probably from late 1941.

 

[JP@AK]

With that S/N, it's definitely WWII production, 1940-45...No V in front of the digits?

Ben

With a number that high, it could not be a V prefix gun. By that time, it would be SV875008, and would be a civilian shipment in about April, 1947.

 

[Truckman]

Ben

With a number that high, it could not be a V prefix gun. By that time, it would be SV875008, and would be a civilian shipment in about April, 1947.

Ahah!...Another deposit in my nearly bankrupt knowledge account...So many digits and letters, so few active brain cells left...

Thanks, Jack......Ben

 

[tombelll]

No, it isn't a Model 10. Those didn't appear until 1958.

The Navy started buying S&W revolvers under contract in early 1941. The serial sequence that began in 1899 was still being used. Many would refer to your revolver as a "pre-Victory" model. The V prefix didn't go into use until April, 1942. Yours would have been purchased by the military before that. The United States Property mark on the top strap is an indication that this revolver was owned/used by the U.S. military during WWII. It also probably means it was not part of the early Navy contract.

There are those here who can give you a pretty close estimate as to when it was purchased.

Edit: I just checked my list - yours is probably from late 1941.

Thanks for that very good and helpful info. I got my Dad's gun wish I still had him!

 

[DARE]

Your gun is a .38 M&P Model of 1905, 4th change.
From October 1940 to February 1941 S&W only built the British Service Revolver. It is the same as your gun, but in .38 S&W.
On February 27,1941 S&W put the .38 M&P back into production. On April 24,1942 S&W hit SN 1,000,000 on the .38 M&P and added the V prefix.
So your gun was built between Feb 27,1941 and Apr 24,1942.
It is wartime production and identical to a Victory model, but probably what you should call it a .38 M&P or a pre-victory model.

 

[murphydog]

Welcome! Good information above from our esteemed Forum colleagues.

One (possible) slight difference on your father's gun from the wartime Victory Models is that it appears to have the dull blue, not Parkerized/phosphate finish. If so this fits into the estimated time frame of its production by SN.

 

[DARE]

In the "History of Smith & Wesson" by Roy Jinks, Roy says early wartime production models had a bright blue finish. From Dec 4, 1941 to Apr 10, 1942 a brush blue finish was used. After that date the parkerized finish.
Good eye, murphydog, I did not spot the finish.

 

[JP@AK]

it appears to have the dull blue, not Parkerized/phosphate finish

In the "History of Smith & Wesson" by Roy Jinks, Roy says early wartime production models had a bright blue finish. From Dec 4, 1941 to Apr 10, 1942 a brush blue finish was used. After that date the parkerized finish.

Alan
I think it is Carbonia blue, just faded quite a bit, especially on the barrel and cylinder. I agree it isn't the phosphate or oxide finish that was used for most of the war.

JADARE
In early 1942, a sandblast and brush finish was used, as you stated. But the Parker process was used only for a couple of weeks in the spring of 1942. For the rest of the war, S&W used a proprietary dull finish that looks a lot like the Parker process, but avoided the royalties demanded by the Parker Rust-Proof Company. It just isn't true that most Victory models were Parkerized.

 

[H Richard]

Keep in mind that these Pre-Victories went to many allies, and were armory rebuilt post war. and given various levels of a parkerized type finish. I had S/N 833351, an Oct 41 ship date that was redone "FTR" in Australia in 1956, before being shipped back to the U.S.

 

[tombelll]

Alan
I think it is Carbonia blue, just faded quite a bit, especially on the barrel and cylinder. I agree it isn't the phosphate or oxide finish that was used for most of the war.

JADARE
In early 1942, a sandblast and brush finish was used, as you stated. But the Parker process was used only for a couple of weeks in the spring of 1942. For the rest of the war, S&W used a proprietary dull finish that looks a lot like the Parker process, but avoided the royalties demanded by the Parker Rust-Proof Company. It just isn't true that most Victory models were Parkerized.

Mine looks to be the half & half finish. Cylinder & barrel are parkerized type finish while rest of gun looks blued. I actually thought this gun might have been cobbled together from 2 different guns.
Any thoughts???

 

[murphydog]

The serial number on original guns will be on the bottom of the grip frame, rear cylinder face and barrel flat near the extractor rod, among other places. See if all those numbers match up with the SN.

 

[DARE]

Jack,
Thanks for the info. I do not claim to know anything, ha ha. Was quoting Jinks on both of my posts.

 

[DWalt]

Your gun is a .38 M&P Model of 1905, 4th change.
From October 1940 to February 1941 S&W only built the British Service Revolver. It is the same as your gun, but in .38 S&W.
On February 27,1941 S&W put the .38 M&P back into production. On April 24,1942 S&W hit SN 1,000,000 on the .38 M&P and added the V prefix.
So your gun was built between Feb 27,1941 and Apr 24,1942.
It is wartime production and identical to a Victory model, but probably what you should call it a .38 M&P or a pre-victory model.

Note that S&W dropped the Model of 1905 terminology in 1915. Thereafter it was simply called a M&P. The closest SN I have listed is 877679 which shipped in 12/1941. With the United States Property topstrap stamp, it is almost certainly military, so it would be appropriate to call it a pre-Victory.

 

[Absalom]

Mine looks to be the half & half finish. Cylinder & barrel are parkerized type finish while rest of gun looks blued. I actually thought this gun might have been cobbled together from 2 different guns.
Any thoughts???

This was my first thought looking at the pictures.

So check the barrel and cylinder serials. Also the right grip panel.

A standard M&P at that serial would still have had the pre-war Carbonia polished blue and definitely checkered medallion stocks. Especially in one photo around the MADE IN USA, it clearly shows that high polish.

But the barrel and cylinder show a dull grey that could be standard Victory sandblast Black Magic, although I'm not certain enough about that just based on pictures either.

 

[Absalom]

BEEP …. BEEP … BEEP …

All us "experts" missed something crucial.

The third photo shows UNITED STATES PROPERTY on the topstrap. Only DWalt noticed this.

But that means this MUST have been a British Service Lend-Lease frame that likely got a .38 Special cylinder and frame sometime after the war.

PS: I just noticed Jack caught it too, although not the full implications

To add the full explanation:

The ONLY .38 Special M&P's that got the long UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamping were a batch of 2" Victory models with known serial ranges. Elsewise, only Lend-Lease BSR's were so stamped. US Victorys during that time (until 1943) were either stamped US NAVY or not at all (for DSC). Only after the introduction of the short US PROPERTY GHD in 1943 did all military Victorys in both variants get the stamp.

So a pre-Victory serialed frame with the long marking HAS to be a BSR frame.

 

[DWalt]

Yes, it struck me odd that a pre-Victory stamped United States Property would be in .38 Special at that time, but I didn't say anything. It makes perfect sense that it could well have been a Lend-Lease BSR later modified to .38 Special by substituting a barrel and cylinder.