I find it interesting that the retired LEO gun enthusiasts discuss guns with civilian

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I think the main division is "non polite" people vs "polite" people (y'all usually use the shorthand term of AH ) This division crosses all lines and occupations whether it be defense lawyers, LEO's or nuc'lair scientists. Then there are gun enthusiasts and non gun enthusiasts-again crossing all lines. It appears that this forum consists of "polite" people who are also gun enthusiasts. Anything beyond that is window dressing and just makes it a little bit more interesting.
Me, I don't care who you are as long as you're not an a....,- I mean polite.
Believe it or not thee are lots of polite gun enthusiasts who are retired LEO's and there are lots of non LEO's who are polite that can shoot rings around some LEO's and vise versa.

 

[Checkman]

People who seem to have this halcyon view of what cops "USED" to be with the sepia tones of a Norman Rockwell painting don't have a clue. Cops are better in virtually all regards today as opposed to yesteryear. You were far more likely to get your *** kicked 50 years ago for "contempt of cop" than you are today. Same for being treated unconstitutionally in any respect. The ONLY thing I would give to the "old timers" is that they had to do more with less technology. Now we do a LOT more work with a lot more technology. And accountability has never, ever been higher. Speaking of accountability: Most "old timer" cops couldn't or wouldn't do the job today knowing there was a video and audio recorder in the car for the whole shift.

Very true. Lots more oversight compared to even just thirty years ago. Good old Officer Mulloy was more likely to lay his straight stick up the side of your head and then just walk away back in the "good old days" and good luck getting the department's admin to listen to you.Officer Mulloy was also more likely to expect and get free meals from the restaurants on his beat and very possibly was taking a cut from whatever racket the detectives had running. In 2013 my admin comes unglued if they find out officers are accepting a 10% discount on coffee. We pay for our meals - full cost. I brown bag it because I can't afford to eat out - like most everybody else. I don't get a meal break or a per diem for meals. I buy my own ammo for practice. I've known a couple (former) officers who have gone to prison for engaging in criminal acts and a few more who had to resign for making bad or stupid decisions.

Ever watch the old film footage busting up union strikers in the thirties or watch the Boston police at work on the protestors during the Sacco and Vanzetti trial? Or for that matter the cops and national guard going to town on the Boston cops during their strike in 1919. Those incidents were filmed, photographed and reported and nobody seemed to care. No Rodney King that time. Officers are better trained and command and control techniques are better. My profession is held to a higher standard of accountability. Stupid and illegal stuff still happens, but I contend it isn't the norm like it was seventy and eighty years ago.

Used to be able to shoot a felon suspect if he or she was running away from you. Ever since Tennessee vs. Gardner that tactic is gone. Just an example of how things are different, but according to some we're jackbooted thugs running loose over the good citizens.

Is there room for improvement? Of course. That can be said for anything. Are police more arrogant than they were back in those wonderful "good old days"? I'm not so sure. But I can tell you one thing. Look at the numbers of officers who were killed in the line of duty back in the late sixties and early seventies. I believe 1973 was the banner year. Not until 2001 was that number higher and it could be argued that with so many of those officers being killed on 9/11 that it isn't the same. In many respects the tactics of today came about from the lessons learned forty years ago. But even then things were different and not exactly wonderful. Read early Waumbaugh. Watch L.A. Confidential or True Confessions. though movies they give a glimpse of how things used to be albeit with some "poetic license".

The numbers of accidental deaths due to careless firearms practices were higher decades ago. Gun-owners have gotten more careful as we are quick to point out. but still the anti's persist in showing us as beer drinking idiots. Nobody here will tolerate such simplistic stereotypes, but evidently it's okay to indulge in those same tactics when it comes to police officers.

Nostalgia can be a trap. Watch out for it. It breaks things down into simplistic terms and life has never been that simple. Ever.

 

[Xtasy]

I agree but I find the use of the term "civilian" by policemen one of th biggest non-issues I've ever seen. Who cares how the police refer to non-police personel. Does it really matter if a policeman calls me or anyone else a civilian? Not to me. Call me what you want,just don't be late in calling me to dinner.

I think it does. If police calls people civilians it just proofs that they are trying to militarize themselves more. Coming from Europe where people are a little bit more sensitive about this kind of things I think the police tends to forget that they are civilians working for civilians under the motto of protect and serve

 

[shouldazagged]

Two important factors I haven't seen mentioned here:

We have a professional, all-volunteer military now--no draft. Only a very small percentage of young people today go into military service and receive firearms training, where it used to be widespread.

The family farm, and land available for hunting, has declined sharply with population growth and development of agricultural and forested areas. It's much more complicated today for most people to train their kids to use firearms for hunting or recreational shooting.

I think these are major factors in the decline of interest in and exposure to guns.

I've always gotten along well with LEO's. I couldn't have done their job fifty years ago when I was a young man. I damn sure couldn't do it today, when they are dealing daily with situations that can go sideways into gunfire in a second. Not from "John Q. Civilian" in general, but from gangsters and other idiots.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Back when I was a puppy policeman we were taught that we weren't anything terribly special, just citizens who had been selected to take care of the community's law enforcement responsibilities on a full-time basis in exchange for a salary. Not above the rest of the citizens, and not beneath them either, just always to remember that we were employed to look after the overall community needs rather than just some individuals'.

Over the years I watched as the training and attitudes changed. More and more the idea of a "thin blue line" of cops being the only thing standing between the good, the bad, and the indifferent. More and more the mindset of being the arbiters of right and wrong. More and more "militarization" of the law enforcement agencies. This was refered to as "professionalism", while in reality what I saw was an increasingly "us versus them" mentality.

While we were encouraged to be active in the community and maintain good personal contacts with citizens and business people, now the emphasis is more on remoteness, aloofness, and impersonal administration of "justice" based upon cookie cutter approaches (zero tolerance policies, etc).

While we were encouraged to exercise judgement and discretion, today's cops have a "book solution" for every situation (domestic violence complaint = someone goes to jail, drinking and driving = someone goes to jail, report of a man with a gun = SWAT Team call-out, etc, etc, etc). A +B +C = someone goes to jail, never mind looking at D, E, F, G, etc.

I don't see crime or violence as being any worse than it was 40-odd years ago when I started out. If anything, many categories of crime are significantly reduced. I do perceive an increase in certain types of problems (street gangs, thrill crimes, etc), but even with that the overall incidence of serious and violent crime is actually lower now than it has been for many decades.

For the most part these days I am disappointed in my contacts with law enforcement in general, and the younger ones in particular. I find most to be aloof, barely courteous, disengaged from the community, and frequently arrogant.

My 2 cents worth.

 

[keith44spl]

Older Lawmen seem to be somewhat more firearm savvy.....
A lot of folks enjoy firearms for sport and recreation....er business

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I've shot with and been shot at, by some of the best!


.

 

[hangnoose]

POST 14 PICTURE

I gotta ask. is the guy in the orange jump suit an escapee or trustee? love those old pics and videos.

 

[25elk]

shouldazagged hit the nail on the head regarding today's military and dwindling opportunities to learn to shoot. We live in a nation of people who use buttons, keys, and joysticks in everything they do and have no time or inclination to get up before daylight and go out into the cold to hunt for a squirrel or a rabbit. That is not cool anymore. Even in war we are a high tech bunch. Could it even be imagined 20 years ago that a person in California watching a screen and operating a joystick could take out a target in Afghanistan. REALLY!

And for those who think the LE community is too edgy just remember that at anytime an officer approaches someone there is a good chance that that person is armed and if inclined to use a weapon, already has the advantage on the LEO. I wouldn't do it today and like CAJUNLAWYER has noted, there are some real ****heads out there. Well that is life and the proportion of AH's in LE is probably less than found in the general population. Apologies for straying off subject.

I used to shoot with DOW and sheriff's deputies regularly along with forest service, state police and National Park Service folks and they all shot well. Oddly, the Park Service won almost all LE matches. I'll never run from Yogi the bear, but that was a long time ago.

 

[Xtasy]

I guess it depends also where you live. In big cities where everything there is no real communication between people it is probably not very likely that a retired LEO will talk to a civilian about guns, but in a little town in the middle of nowhere I think the chances are way bigger

And for those who think the LE community is too edgy just remember that at anytime an officer approaches someone there is a good chance that that person is armed and if inclined to use a weapon, already has the advantage on the LEO.

While we are working hard in Afghanistan to not be edgy and actually communicate with the population, our own police force is heading into exactly the opposite direction.
I understand that the officer wants to go home to his family after his shift, but he knew of the danger when he decided that he wanted to exercise this job. Looking at the militarization and the growing gap between citizens and LEO I am wondering when we get to the point where citizens are encountered with drawn firearms because they might be a hazard?

But I guess it currently comes down do another question. Looking at the current spying scandals of our government, when will the police draw a line and not enforce infringements on people's constitutional rights?
With the current us vs them mentality I personally believe that our law enforcement would not protect its citizens in case of a government going crazy

 

[H Richard]

I've never carried a badge, but was a auxiliary member if the IL Police Assoc., and shot in PPC and bullseye competition monthly for many years. I found very few of our local city police of county sheriff's ever came out to compete and those that did could seldom best the few non-leo's that did compete. As said above, most police aren't gun people, they are law enforcement and the gun is just a tool.

 

[NYlakesider]

A little late but I will jump in now.

Back in the 70s I was one of the first NRA certified instructors to teach the pre issues course for getting a CCWP that was made mandatory by the sitting county judge back then. Lately most of those courses are taught by active LEOs and a few retired. Yes there all gun guys and quite qualified to do that.

Most of the many cops I know personally or have met can be defined as gun people. They come to the range on their own time with their own ammo and practice or generally have a good time with other enthusiasts.

Now the LEO out there that carries because it's part of their uniform and normally only shoot/practices enough to squeak by Quals is a different story... I was also a R.O. at my club and some of the horror stories I can tell you about what I have seen non gun types LEOs do or not do would positively amaze you. Most times when stopped (done quite friendly by me) from doing or questioned I get a reply like I'm a cop and well trained who do you think you are.

One quick example I showed up at the range and one was firing at 15 yards and standing about 10' apart back at the 25 yard line another was also firing at the same time. I yelled cease fire and holster and they came up to me guns in hand and got belligerent. One even said were partners and know enough not to shoot each other.

I explained this is a huge club with about 2,000 members and we have to have SERIOUS range discipline. They grumbled a bit more and complied. I checked with my buddy who was a armorer and instructor at their cop shop and he told me these were two good cops in most respects but they could barely shoot well enough to keep their certification and far from being gun people.

So it depends what cop/s you meet or talk with what your results will be. IMHO most cops I meet are gun people or quite ambivalent on non LEO carry and use of weapons. Unfortunately the ones that get the most publicity are the chiefs (Usually a political appointment) that in order to keep their job have to conform to their mayor or executives wishes.

 

[Checkman]

People were saying the police had lost touch with the general population when the move was towards patrol cars in the fifties and the beat cop began to go away. But the move to patrol cars came about because cities grew so rapidly in the years after WWII and urban/suburban sprawl became the standard. The beat cop (i.e. on foot) just couldn't respond as quickly. Also telephones became common place and the emergency response system became the norm. Citizens have come to expect rapid response from their police department as well as fire and paramedics and ambulances.

My city has approximately 50,000 residents and it sprawls. Subdivisions everywhere. My department has 62 officers. But not all 62 officers work all the time. Some of the farther subs can take up to eight minutes to reach and that's moving out at a good speed at 3:00 A.M. Walking the beat isn't very realistic. Like most towns and cities most of our population is not in the urban core anymore. In the summertime our school resource officers ride around on bicycles since school isn't in session. The business owners like that program, but it isn't year around and nobody seems to want to cough up the extra few million dollars that it would take to hire another ten officers so that we could have bicycle cops year around.

There are times that we have so many calls backed up that we just don't have time to be Officer Friendly. There are times that I'm brusque and I know people have described me as rude and curt. I try to be polite and professional but sometimes.

I don't call my fellow citizens civilians. I was in the Army for 14 years. I know the difference. But there are reasons why things are the way they are now. Court cases/legal precedence, citizen expectations, changing populations, technology etc etc. It isn't an excuse, but things change.

There is always room for improvement. I've been an officer for thirteen years and I went through my badge heavy time. fortunately I was 32 when I got hired so I got through it faster than young cops in their twenties and figured out things just go smoother when I am more courteous. But there are times when being a jerk is required. Sometimes that's the only way to get people to listen or respond. It takes experience and maturity for an officer to develop that sense of when the situation dictates how to act.

Once again not an excuse, but an explanation. Everybody says that cops never explain why they do the things they do. Well I'm doing just that.

Trust me that wonderful neighborhood cop that Frank Capra and Norman Rockwell immortalized could be a major *******. at times. Frequently was.

 

[Ethang]

I did not read this whole thread but here goes. I have no problem at all with Citizens having guns. I don't consider myself anything but a Citizen, and don't call Citizens, Civilians. I have a big problem with ****heads having guns. I don't think infringing on the rights of a Citizen to prevent a ****head from having a gun is legal or proper.

Also, most of the Citizens that I shoot with, and shoot with regularly will outshoot nearly all of the "highly" trained cops that I have worked with on two different departments.

A "C" class IPSC or IDPA shooter is likely better then most all normal cops, and a "A or B" class is likely better then the majority of Swat cops.

 

[Ethang]

don't shoot the messenger

thewelshm

a good portion of cops would miss him....numerous times....on a static range....

 

[pinduck]

Most cops I know are civiilians as I am now, some of us are also vets.

 

[S&W45Colt]

I guess it depends also where you live. In big cities where everything there is no real communication between people it is probably not very likely that a retired LEO will talk to a civilian about guns, but in a little town in the middle of nowhere I think the chances are way bigger



While we are working hard in Afghanistan to not be edgy and actually communicate with the population, our own police force is heading into exactly the opposite direction.
I understand that the officer wants to go home to his family after his shift, but he knew of the danger when he decided that he wanted to exercise this job. Looking at the militarization and the growing gap between citizens and LEO I am wondering when we get to the point where citizens are encountered with drawn firearms because they might be a hazard?

But I guess it currently comes down do another question. Looking at the current spying scandals of our government, when will the police draw a line and not enforce infringements on people's constitutional rights?
With the current us vs them mentality I personally believe that our law enforcement would not protect its citizens in case of a government going crazy

You make an excellent point, I should have qualified my comments to small to middle America. Large City PD's have always handled things differently and had different mindsets than the rest of LE. The officers daily experience in NYC for example, is much different than an officer's in rural America.

 

[S&W45Colt]

"I got through it faster than young cops in their twenties and figured out things just go smoother when I am more courteous. But there are times when being a jerk is required. Sometimes that's the only way to get people to listen or respond. It takes experience and maturity for an officer to develop that sense of when the situation dictates how to act. " Checkman

Well said and it about sums it up. Courtesy is a must, we've both worked with guys who could start a fight in a retirement home, I'd bet. On the other end of the scale, sometimes you have to insert a boot in someone's butt, the key is the ability to do both and the good sense to know the right time to do either.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
I have negative problem with all law abiding citizens being armed and carrying. Most of the ones that are "Shooters" score better on the range than us "Cops". They normally have better and more modern weapons. Several times during my 45 years career armed citizens have "Saved My Butt". I firmly believe that "An Armed Society, Is A Free Society". When "The Balloon Goes Up" its the armed citizens who is going to be our "Backup".

 

[Comrad]

I believe the older LEO grew up like the rest of us civilians in a more gun friendly time and learned to use, appreciate and love guns.

Kids today, boy do I sound like an old fart, have grown up in an environment has indoctrinated them into the guns are bad and only bad people own them way of thinking in a great deal of the time and many didn't have that opportunity to bond with an older relative and learn to use and appreciate them.

 

[BE Mike]

I've found that, in general, firearms enthusiasm rises above the differences in occupation, age, political affiliation, race, sex, sexual preference and even prejudices. Just go to any NRA annual meeting exhibition hall and see whose talking to whom. I have also learned that there are a small percentage of jack wagons everywhere, even in the firearm enthusiast ranks. I never feared responsible law-abiding gun owners. I do have a low tolerance for haters of any sort.