I Had An Interesting Talk Yesterday....

[jaykellogg]

Not too many of the German people were dyed in the wool Nazis. Some joined to reap benefits of membership and some went along because they didn't know what to do to resist. It would be interesting to see a study of how the Nazis took over Germany. It has probably been too long though. It does show how a few dedicated can take over the majority.

Regarding Russia, in WWII they suffered greatly at the hands of the Germans and when the tide turned, rape and murder of civilians became official policy. IMHO, the USA should have listened to Patton. WWII vets I have talked with said the German soldiers did not want to surrender to the Russians at the end of the war.

I do not believe the allies targeted civilians on purpose. I know Dresden was just about bombed back into the stone ages, but I understand there were military targets there. The Germans on the other hand with their rockets, these were simply terror weapons.

After WWI the winners demanded reparations from Germany. This set up Germany for the rise of the Third Reich. After WWII we didn't repeat that mistake.

 

[Gamecock]

I do not believe the allies targeted civilians on purpose.

You are mistaken. The British engaged in night-time area bombing of German cities. American targeting of Japan was also area bombing of cities.

I know Dresden was just about bombed back into the stone ages, but I understand there were military targets there.

The focus of American bombing from 1944 on was transportation. Dresden was a major rail hub. As such, it was clearly a military target.

After WWI the winners demanded reparations from Germany. This set up Germany for the rise of the Third Reich. After WWII we didn't repeat that mistake.

That wasn't necessarily the mistake. Had the Allies maintained military strength, it wouldn't have mattered.

I think giving Germany responsibility for WWI was morally wrong. It was agreed to by Pres. Wilson, who had been against it on moral grounds, when it was pointed out that it would be the only way the U.S. would get it's money back from the British, French, etc., to whom it has extended credit.

The Germans had plenty to be mad about. But it was laziness/unpreparedness by the Allies that led Germany to take military action.

 

[DWalt]

Many years ago I worked with a German engineer. One of the most interesting people I have met. He was in the Hitler Youth, and later in the Wehrmacht. His unit was personally inspected by Hitler. He caught a shell fragment at the Battle of the Bulge that put him out of commission for the duration. Most interesting were his stories of life after Germany's defeat. I sure wouldn't have wanted to be a German in Germany during that period. He also came to the US in the early 1950s but died about 1970. I wish I had recorded some of his stories.

 

[BearBio]

I have an ex-brother (he has been disowned by most of the family for racist views, theft, and other high crimes==even his own children do not speak to him) who still disbelieves the Holocaust occurred.

My wife is ethnically Jewish (of Jewish heritage). EVERYBODY who meets her falls in love with her. My mom said if we ever split up, she could move in with them, I was on my own! This brother was spouting off about Jews, using various slurs and I pointed out she was Jewish by ancestry==he has never talked to us since.

The bombing of Cologne is largely recognized as "payback" for the Germans bombing Rotterdam after the Netherlands had surrendered. They "dared" to hold out longer than the poles, French and Belgians.

Primary pressure upon Wilson came from the French. One General (Pershing, I believe) stated that we would have to refight WWI again in 20 years due to the harsh surrender terms of the Armistice.

A few good reads:

The Rape of Nanking
America Guerrilla in the Phillippines
Slaughterhouse Five (semi-fiction)

There is a book on Mallory and Everest--it covers the aftermath of WWI very deeply=I'll have to look up the title.


A few good movies:

Flowers of War (?) about the Rape of Nanking, starring Christian Bailes.

Soldier of Orange, starring Rutger Hauer=the Dutch underground in WWII=real biography.

 

[PA Reb]

I believe "jaykellogg" is partially correct. The biggest majority of the German people didn't want anything to do with the NSDAP party. The NSDAP was originally created as a means to draw workers away from communism and into nationalism and at the time, was headed by Hitler. In 1933, President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler to Chancellor of Germany who in turn quickly established a totalitarian regime (the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever necessary - I dare say this all sounds terribly familiar) better known as the Third Reich. The NSDAP was abolished by the Allied occupying forces at the conclusion of the war. Technically speaking then, it wasn't the NSDAP that caused everything to happen but the maniac and his beliefs that founded the Third Reich. And then, a dedicated group of men with a "seemingly charismatic" leader who was at first able to lift Germany out of the pits was able to conquer the people. I dare say also that if Hitler had met his demise sometime before the 1939 invasion of Poland and his ultra-radical policies against certain ethnic groups, he would probably be regarded today as one of the greatest leaders the world has ever seen. BUT, his true intent came quickly which eventually plunged the world into the chaos we call WW II.

Regarding "jaykellogg"s' statement on Patton's theory about what should have been done near the end, I have mixed feelings. Although in my opinion Patton was THE best general the U.S. has ever produced, he was a little radical and ahead of his time. Who knows what would have happened had the U.S. went along with his thoughts. I believe at that point in time, the U.S. and the rest of the world just wanted to get it all behind them and rebuild. The possibilites on that subject, both pro and con, are endless.

"jaykellogg" then went on to say that he does "not believe the allies targeted civilians on purpose." I have to agree with that to a certain extent but have to say this - Back in the 1940s, we didn't have the precision smart bombing ability we have today. Since forces of the Third Reich were imbedded just about everywhere inside Germany and Europe at the time, they had to be weakened and driven out in some fashion. Just imagine how long it would have taken and how many more soldiers would have been killed if they had to do all this in close quarter, boots on the ground combat! So, the United States and Great Britain "took an approach that greatly emphasized strategic bombing, and to a lesser degree, tactical control of the battlefield by air, and adequate air defenses. They both built a strategic force of large, long-range bombers that could carry the air war to the enemy's homeland. Simultaneously, they built tactical air forces that could win air superiority over the battlefields, thereby giving vital assistance to ground troops." This close air support literally stunned Germany's ground forces. The price paid by the civilians caught up in all this was indeed sad but they weren't the target, they were sadly just "in the way".

And finally, when "jaykellogg" stated that "after WWI the winners demanded reparations from Germany. This set up Germany for the rise of the Third Reich. After WWII we didn't repeat that mistake.", I believe him to be partially correct again. The start of WW I has indeed been blamed on Germany but it is a hotly debated topic. There are many, many reasons (too numerous to list here) that WW I started and Germany wasn't completely innocent. To say they started it however is, in my opinion, incorrect. I think "Gamecock" described it best when he said "I think giving Germany responsibility for WWI was morally wrong. It was agreed to by Pres. Wilson, who had been against it on moral grounds, when it was pointed out that it would be the only way the U.S. would get it's money back from the British, French, etc., to whom it has extended credit. The Germans had plenty to be mad about. But it was laziness/unpreparedness by the Allies that led Germany to take military action."

As a side note before I stop ranting, I spoke again with my new found friend yesterday and she agreed to sit and talk with me more. She was discharged from the hospital but continues to be a very sick woman. I pray she survives, hope that I can talk to her again soon, but cherish everything she shared with me to date. This is a great discussion and its wonderful to hear stories from all the members who have posted. I hope it continues for a little while longer !

 

[cmort666]

Regarding Russia, in WWII they suffered greatly at the hands of the Germans and when the tide turned, rape and murder of civilians became official policy.

The interesting thing about rapes by the Red Army in Germany is that they didn't confine themselves to German women. A female Polish conscript laborer was as likely to be raped as a German Hausfrau. Anything female and not Soviet was fair game.

A lot of this is detailed in books like "Ivan's War" and "Berlin 1945".

 

[Gamecock]

Two words for you folks who think the Allied bombers didn't target civilians:

Hiroshima

Nagasaki

 

[Beemerguy53]

I had a GF years ago who's mother was a teenager in Quedlinburg during the war. I tried to talk with her about the War, but she would have none of it. I had an extreme academic interest; it was too terribly personal for her.

She did tell me that her 15-year old best friend, sitting in a window knitting, was shot to death by an American fighter plane. Telling me that fighter pilots targeted civilians. I was bothered at first, but later rationalized that there was no difference between dropping bombs on them and shooting them directly.

BTW, GF confided to me that her mother still hates Jews. OP,
if the subject of Jews comes up, you may be shocked by what the lady says.

War is a nasty business.

In Chuck Yeager's autobiography, he describes one mission where he and his squadron were instructed to attack a town and strafe anything that moved. This was intended to demoralize the German population. Yeager recalled telling another pilot that with them doing things like this, he sure hoped the USA would win the war...

 

[dcxplant]

Pretty cool Reb.

My dad was born in 1927, was conscripted into the Wermacht at 16 and sent to Stalingrad. After surviving that, he was tossed into a Gulag from which he managed to escape, right at the end of the war, as the Russians were shipping German prisoners inland to keep as laborers. He made it to Berlin to join with the rest of the family.

His mother, her sister, and my dad's sister spent over two weeks of pure hell walking from a small village just south of the Baltic Sea (Naugart, now Nowogaard Poland) being raped every day.

My aunt married and Annapolis graduate in the 50's and my dad immigrated in 1954. They love America, and have instilled that gratitude in me for the opportunities this country has given my family.

My family curses Hitler, and my dad frequently makes the comments that lady you met has said.

 

[silentflyer]

Our family Dr. and friend for years till he passed away was an officer in the U.S. Army at the end of the war in Europe, was in theater from Aug. 1944 till sometime in 1947, once commented the day after the Nazi's surrender you couldn't find anyone in Germany who would admit to being or supporting the Nazis from 1933 on...funny I always wondered where they got all those people in the stadiums for the big Nazi rallies..

 

[cmort666]

Our family Dr. and friend for years till he passed away was an officer in the U.S. Army at the end of the war in Europe, was in theater from Aug. 1944 till sometime in 1947, once commented the day after the Nazi's surrender you couldn't find anyone in Germany who would admit to being or supporting the Nazis from 1933 on...funny I always wondered where they got all those people in the stadiums for the big Nazi rallies..

Most people will follow the path of least resistance. They won't START a lynching or a pogrom on their own, but they won't stop one either. They just go along with the rest. If one guy can talk a group into burning a synagog or hanging some Koreans from lamp posts, people will just fall in line, especially in societies that punish nonconformity, like Japan and pre-war Germany.

 

[dcxplant]

Our family Dr. and friend for years till he passed away was an officer in the U.S. Army at the end of the war in Europe, was in theater from Aug. 1944 till sometime in 1947, once commented the day after the Nazi's surrender you couldn't find anyone in Germany who would admit to being or supporting the Nazis from 1933 on...funny I always wondered where they got all those people in the stadiums for the big Nazi rallies..

You can convince a lot of people to do a lot of things at gunpoint. A modern example is North Korea and the mass hysteria, crying and wailing when Kim Jong Il died. A total mockery, but if you are the one not crying, you will suffer the consequences.


When Hitler's party made majority in parliament, and he rose to power, a boy in my dad's school was angry at his father about something. The boy made a comment to is teacher that his dad said Hitler was a "poopy head" (think the German word for it) and that boy's dad disappeared. That family was German.

I'm not saying there weren't huge amount of Germans supporting Hitler as he rose to power, but not everyone was on board, and many were just afraid. Most, like my family just wanted to run their farms and live their lives.

 

[PA Reb]

Two words for you folks who think the Allied bombers didn't target civilians:

Hiroshima

Nagasaki

Not true in my opinion. The discussion above was, I believe, about the bombing in Europe that took place under Roosevelt until his death on April 12, 1945. The ensuing president, Harry Truman, was initially briefed on the new atomic bomb on the same day as Roosevelt's death. Less than a month later, Truman declared victory in Europe on May 8, 1945. Because of the Japanese refusal to surrender, Truman authorized the use of this new technology in August of 1945. At that time, no-one, not even the people that designed and built the bomb, had any idea of the destructive force that would actually be unleashed when and IF it detonated as planned. It is estimated today that (A) an invasion of Japan might have taken a year or more to complete, (B) up to a half million American lives were probably saved by dropping those bombs versus a U.S. (not allies) invasion of the Japanese mainland, and (C) may have cost several billions of dollars. Understand, all this went down under a new president who was much more tenacious than Roosevelt and at a time when the U.S. public and the rest of the world was at witts end with the war - everyone wanted it over and done with.

So, my response to your claim that the U.S. and its allies (again, we had no allies fighting Japan with us) "targeted civilians" and civilians specifically is this - Sorry sir, but your theory doesn't hold water with me. Truman did the only thing he could have done at that time and saved the lives of countless Americans and Japanese which ultimately brought a quick end to the war. Again, I go back to a previous statement I made when I say civilians weren't the actual targets but they were sadly in the way of the military might of the nations that started the war in the first place.

 

[geoff40]

If any of you get a chance to see an independent film called Surviving Hitler, do so. You will not regret it or consider it wasted time.

I've always loved the chance to listen to older folks. The war, even just the world before the war, I never get tired of listening.

 

[Warrant Mafia]

My mother is German and lived in Augsburg during the War. She was a child 7 or 8 and she recalled the 1943 bombing of the "ball bearing plant". She witnessed the planes being shot down, pilots being captured (paraded through the streets). She also told me, every time the air sirens went off, they would sneak out of the basement and steal potatoes from the field across the street. Food Rationing was so bad, she always felt hungry. She is getting older - I like the idea of recording the stories for my children to hear is great. Especially when they think they have it so bad. Her father fought on the Russian front and as a teenager in the 80's, I was able to get him to tell me some stories, but he struggled to tell me those. I agree - the stories living under Hitler would be a great read..

 

[cmort666]

(again, we had no allies fighting Japan with us)

I'm sure that the Aussies who fought the Japanese with us on New Guinea and the Brits who fought the Japanese with us in Burma would disagree.

 

[PA Reb]

I'm sure that the Aussies who fought the Japanese with us on New Guinea and the Brits who fought the Japanese with us in Burma would disagree.

You know what I mean.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Not true in my opinion. The discussion above was, I believe, about the bombing in Europe that took place under Roosevelt until his death on April 12, 1945. The ensuing president, Harry Truman, was initially briefed on the new atomic bomb on the same day as Roosevelt's death. Less than a month later, Truman declared victory in Europe on May 8, 1945. Because of the Japanese refusal to surrender, Truman authorized the use of this new technology in August of 1945. At that time, no-one, not even the people that designed and built the bomb, had any idea of the destructive force that would actually be unleashed when and IF it detonated as planned. It is estimated today that (A) an invasion of Japan might have taken a year or more to complete, (B) up to a half million American lives were probably saved by dropping those bombs versus a U.S. (not allies) invasion of the Japanese mainland, and (C) may have cost several billions of dollars. Understand, all this went down under a new president who was much more tenacious than Roosevelt and at a time when the U.S. public and the rest of the world was at witts end with the war - everyone wanted it over and done with.

So, my response to your claim that the U.S. and its allies (again, we had no allies fighting Japan with us) "targeted civilians" and civilians specifically is this - Sorry sir, but your theory doesn't hold water with me. Truman did the only thing he could have done at that time and saved the lives of countless Americans and Japanese which ultimately brought a quick end to the war. Again, I go back to a previous statement I made when I say civilians weren't the actual targets but they were sadly in the way of the military might of the nations that started the war in the first place.

A lot of Americans might not wish to believe it, but the historical record does in fact bear out that the Allies targeted civilian populations. I cited one such instance in a previous post on this thread, wherein Chuck Yeager participated in the strafing of a German town. And I recall reading a quote some time ago from Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris, who orchestrated the Royal Air Force's bombing campaign, to the effect that it was immaterial to him whether Britain's nighttime air raids destroyed German factories, or killed the workers who manned them as they slept in their beds.

If you Google the term "WWII targeting of civilians" you can find many articles on the subject. Here's one of them: Targeting Civilians

As I said in my previous post, war is a nasty business...

 

[Kanewpadle]

I'm sure that the Aussies who fought the Japanese with us on New Guinea and the Brits who fought the Japanese with us in Burma would disagree.

You would be correct. The Japanese were brutal. But not all of the Japanese army were actually of Japanese descent. And the Japanese were very brutal on their own people too.

 

[cmort666]

Again, I go back to a previous statement I made when I say civilians weren't the actual targets but they were sadly in the way of the military might of the nations that started the war in the first place.[/FONT]

German civilians WERE the targets of the British area bombing campaign as were Japanese civilians in the firebombing campaign.

Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris's aim was to disrupt German war production by, among other things, dispersing and demoralizing the German labor force. Messerschmitts and PzKpfW IVs don't built themselves. Even if you miss the factory by five miles, if nobody shows up to work, nothing gets built. If 10% of the workforce doesn't show up, LESS gets built.

By the time of the firebomb raids, Japanese war production had been dispersed to numerous neighborhood job shops. While this led in many cases to execrable quality, it also made it impossible to target specific industrial targets in the supply chain, apart from very large companies or places where component parts were consolidated. Imagine trying to individually bomb every little screw machine shop in Cleveland or Pittsburgh using technology that has something like a five mile CPE (Circular Probability Error) under IDEAL conditions. Try doing that through the jetstream, and you might as well be trying to shoot a Brown Bess musket at a 50' NRA slowfire pistol target at 600 yards during Hurricane Sandy.

The alternatives:

1. Avoid civilians casualties... by avoiding BOMBING, without reference to winning or losing the war.
2. Accept ENEMY civilian casualties to minimize FRIENDLY military and civilian casualties. Remember, thousands of Allied (especially Chinese) civilians were dying EVERY day in DELIBERATE attacks by the Germans and Japanese.

The question is, "Was it proper to use the strategy and tactics employed against Germany and Japan?"

Virtually ALL criticisms I see of the bombing campaigns against Germany and Japan involve UNILATERAL renunciation of bombing of cities by the Allies, AFTER the other side had been engaged in sustained bombing of civilians targets, as far back as Shanghai.

As was said of the Doolittle raid in the classic documentary "The World at War", "Bombing was something that happened to OTHER people." That was the attitude taken by the Germans and Japanese, and which is still taken by those who hate liberal western democracy, mainly neo-Nazis, Japanese ultra-rightwingers and ultra-leftwing academics in the west. The contemptible Gar Alperovitz is one well known example of the latter.

Read a few pages on the Rape of Nanking and Babi Yar and it becomes EXCEEDINGLY difficult to work up much indignation over Dresden or Tokyo.