I have some self defense firearms information to share.

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mg357

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Hello,

over the weekend I purchased the Guns Magazine special edition 2017

Surplus Vintage & Classic firearms, and in this magazine their is an article titled.

Just Enough Gun The .30 M1 Carbine may be the best home-defense tool you never thought of.

Written by Mr. Tiger McKee.

it starts on page 40 and ends on page 45.


I highly recommend that you go out to your local bookstore or newsstand and purchase this magazine, and read the article As Soon As Possible.

If you can't find it at the local bookstore or newsstand go to guns magazine dot com and order it their.

Thank you have a good day.
 
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I saw and read the article last week, and while he makes some good points I can't buy into the notion of "best home defense tool". Best is subject to the homeowners situation, and for me, that translates into a glock 23.
 
There are a number of reasons why whatever you like may be the best home defense weapon. For years, in community safety classes, I recommended a 20 guage pump shotgun loaded with #6 shot.
A shot gun is very intimidating. When you rack the action on the shotgun, you create immediate psychological dominance. Over-penetration is not a major concern, unless you live in a cheap apartment house. You don't have to be an expert shooter to hit your target. Recoil is mild enough for the little woman to handle while still giving excellent results at household ranges.
Pick what you want, but think about the intimidation factor (better not to have to shoot someone and still get the results you want), over-penetration, and likelihood of hitting a target in the dark while overloaded with adrenaline.
 
Over penetration would be my concern. Otherwise, I'd have my M69 as my primary home defense weapon.

I have families on both sides of me. I would be greatly concerned if I missed an invader. Granted, the likeliest trajectory would be through many walls.

Still, I may have to check out the article. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Folks, gun writers, like many in other interest specific writing fields, have the terrible problem of trying to write about a subject that is already written to death for the most part. There are new products, new things, some improvements, new ideas, but the vast majority of it all is beaten to death. If you can't make something new, or add a new angle, you have no choice but to rehash the same ideas with a controversial tone: X is the BEST home defense you've ever imagined!, or Reconsidering the X, or Is X really underrated after all, The one trick home defense experts don't want you to know, ect. You take an old caliber, an old gun, a new bullet which is might be marginally better, and you write in a way that THIS IS THE REVOLUTION FOLKS THROW OUT OUR GUNS AND BUY X.

The article, of course, is not a well written rehash by a professional writer who has to sometimes make filler articles to fill publications in order to feed his family, why, this "new" information is a revolution that is going to change home defense, hunting, the industry, ect. This new product or reconsideration is not a simply a worthy idea or an update to help educate the community, but rather is THE BEST or REVOLUTION.

So, when we start talking about "BEST' from an article or publication, take it with some heaping grains of salt, because that's the controversy and ire it raises in you that gets you to react and bring "heat". Its a tactic, like "This one simple trick" or "When you see this it will shock you" kinda stuff. Bait.

The core problem is that it does things like this in a forum, where the provocation leads to people getting riled up, which is what provocation does.

30 Carbine is a fine choice for home defense, but so are many other cartridges. That's worth discussing. "Best" is like 45 vs 9mm or Ak47 vs M-16, a troll bait scheme that leads to great flame wars, anger, and some lulz to others.
 
If your concerned with penetration, stick to 5.56/.223. Every test I've seen seems to point to it penetrating less than 12 ga OO Buck, 9mm,
40 SW and 12 ga slugs.

Real World .223 Testing

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Protected One said:
I saw and read the article last week, and while he makes some good points I can't buy into the notion of "best home defense tool". Best is subject to the homeowners situation, and for me, that translates into a glock 23.
Click to expand...

I agree all up to the home owner .. mine is either 40 Compact or Beretta PX-4 Sub-Compact ..

At one time I thought a shotgun was the best .. but then a scenario was brought up where a hostage situation might occur in your home with one of your children or grand children .. with a shotgun your defenseless as you wouldn't fire it toward the Perp with a hostage in line of fire .. a pistol in that case might be a better self defense weapon ..
 
Thanks, but I think I'll stick with my Glocks for home defense. In house Force-on-Force thoroughly convinced me that a handgun makes the most sense for me.

Tiger McKee also wrote this AR-15: The Ideal Home Defense Gun? - Gun Digest. Making statements about the muzzles being about even if you compare a shooter with an AR(or any long gun) against a shooter holding a pistol extended undermines his credibility and demonstrates he doesn't truly understand the issue.
 
Whitwabit said:
I agree all up to the home owner .. mine is either 40 Compact or Beretta PX-4 Sub-Compact ..

At one time I thought a shotgun was the best .. but then a scenario was brought up where a hostage situation might occur in your home with one of your children or grand children .. with a shotgun your defenseless as you wouldn't fire it toward the Perp with a hostage in line of fire .. a pistol in that case might be a better self defense weapon ..
Click to expand...

You can "what if " and propose every manner of "situation" that would eliminate every gun on the planet as being the "proper" home / self defense arm.
Hostages aren't likely around my house so I keep the 12 gauge pump and a 1911 45 acp handy ...I shoot both well.
That 12 gauge does instill a measure of confidence and comfort .
You have to select whatever you can shoot well and have confidence in . Some "expert" who writes for a magazine doesn't select my firearms for me .
Gary
 
There ya go... What Tiger McKee thinks is 'the best' or 'revolutionary', pretty much depends on what his editor wants it to be and how many pages he needs to fill. :D
 
"Best" is usually not, because it requires something that for many doesn't exist, or a commitment most won't make. Add the peculiar situation of defending yourself and family while trapped inside your own home and issues are exponentially raised.

A shotgun may raise a lot of intimidation factor - but only for some, and the response may be an escalation of force that can't be impeded or intended. Like, "put the shotgun down or I kill your kid." It becomes a "mexican standoff" with ego on the line.

First thing for HD is to ask just what were you doing to get their attention in the first place. Then why you didn't have a better exterior defense plan to get the potential intruders to reconsider. Thugs do generally pick on the weak - they prefer no dogs - don't want lights on - dislike exposed entryways - don't need the tells of a burglar alarm system - and are very surprised to find they can't just break the glass and reach in.

But - gun forum - we ignore all the better answers (I didn't say best) and go straight into what gun do I use to shoot them? Kinda like Fiona in Burn Notice, no, shooting them isn't always the best choice. Keeping them out is.

So, they get in, which demonstrates to the neighborhood, cops, and friends everything you could have done failed. Engaging armed intruders inside your home should have been preceded by 1) a call to 911, and 2) you getting out the back door if at all possible. Somehow they have defeated your expensive door, high security locks, and alarm system to step into your home. Why are you still in there? Do you really want a shootout, because once the bullets start flying then you can bet somebody can and will get hit, and the cops will come in right behind them. Now you are downrange from TWO armed groups shooting it out. And your rounds could hit a cop. It's been noted more than once shootings that "innocent" bystanders are hit by police gunfire.

That window security film and German Shepherd are looking like a better deal every second now.

There's an intruder to engage - do you shoot? Did you map out your lanes of fire beforehand? Do you know where the bullets will go? What are the more likely avenues of fire and what is behind you? Hopefully NOT your wife and family - it puts them downrange of the bullets passing you and makes them the backstop. You need to know beforehand what is up - and what will not stop a bullet.

Most homes in America use sheetrock construction hung on 2x4 framing and for the most part ANY bullet can pass thru it. It's not even good enough to withstand getting kicked in by a teenager and it certainly won't contain gunfire. Neither will furniture, appliances, cabinets, and bookcases, which are a rare and dwindling item in today's lifestyle. Nope, you will only have concealment, and gunfire will reduce that cover to splinters pretty quickly. Go look at videos and see for yourself. No way I'm hiding behind a flimsy wall or taking cover behind the refrigerator. But that also goes to the other side - they have no cover, either. Therefore, pick a cartridge that CAN to do the one thing you need done first - get a hit, get the first hits, and keep getting hits. If you can see them then shoot. If you can't see them but know where they are - shoot. Our VP may not be all that well trained about guns, but he does know you can shoot thru stuff, and if the person you are shooting at is a known aggressor who has crossed your personal sense of space, give warning and then shoot. We are NOT the cops, they will be seen as the non-residents in question, and the cops aren't always trying to make things bad for the people they protect.

That's why you DO want ammo capable of penetration. First, you get hits. Second, you know the lanes of fire and you know if you can shoot or not. They don't - they are endangering one and all, even themselves, so the sooner they stop shooting the better.

Do you have an armored position to shoot from? Likely not. In point of fact, it won't help if you are known to be armoring your home to entrap thugs and kill them. Don't - keep them out first.

You may have read where some plan to hide in a safe place where the intruders can't enter, be careful because all it does it trap you there. If that place is armored - literally plated with bullet proof materials which cannot be penetrated, then, is it also burn proof? If they have a 15 minute head start on the cops then things could go downhill quickly, and not being able to exit a burning home would be a difficult circumstance to overcome. If you are out in the country even more so as response times lengthen. Do you see how some decisions create a cascade of new circumstances where things could get worse? Be careful what you read on the internet, a lot of stuff is posted up but as I hope I've pointed out, it's not always in your best interest. There is no best. What you want is something better than what you have, and for the most part the casual thief or burglar passes by. Too high a risk or just too much work.

Soon enough the cops will show up. Expect to be put in handcuffs, regardless of your attire, and then escorted out the door for the TV cams to broadcast later. I'll ask once again - doesn't that security window film and German Shepherd sound even more attractive now? After all, you will eventually be asked why you spent the money on an arsenal of guns and ammo when $150 of break resistant plastic film would have prevented it. (I know, I sound like I'm shilling for them, check the Europeans - they are 15 years ahead on this.) BTW, that video can become file footage for the next shooting and you get to see it all over again. For years.

Better to figure out how to avoid all that silliness. Pick whatever gun you like if you think it fits your best use. Done right, you won't ever have to use it - all the other things you did to reduce your public signature as an excessive consumer who needs to be robbed and beaten, or who is too tough to bother with need to be done first.

Like, tis the season, don't leave those expensive boxes out in the trash. Cut them down and parcel them out weeks later when they fit and nobody sees what they were. You make it harder for thugs to know which house to pick - nobody needs the Wet Bandits in their basement glued to the stairs or hanging off a slide for life to the treehouse. They don't need to be shot - if they never choose your house or get into it.
 
I don't recall the M1 Carbine magazines, and ammo feed, being as reliable as today's more modern handguns. Although many people have, not sure I'd want to bet my life on one. :confused:
 
I knew a Korean war vet who did not think much good of the 30 carbine.
He said it took several rounds to stop a 125 pound commie.
As for me, I will stick with the 44 special and 12 gauge with 00 buck.
 
If the local cops came to my house and found I had a bunch of guns and a dead intruder inside my house they would check out my story etc. Having a bunch of guns around here is more or less normal They would need some serious proof that it was something besides a home defense shooting before the County attorney could go to the district judge and show him evidence that it was something else before they could arrest me. Here my home is my castle.
 
I'll happily continue to count on a couple of .38 Specials and a twenty-inch twelve gauge side-by-side with #4 buck. Any shot inside this apartment will be fifteen feet or less.
 
A carbine....

To me a carbine is just right. I'd like to have an M1 but they are pricey unless you buy a new copy. Inside the house, pistols are fine with me, but for anything outside of where I can shoot a handgun accurately, give me a carbine.
 
I found it through this link......

M1 .30 carbine performance. << Ballistics by the inch

I'd definitely pick a bullet that wouldn't over-penetrate.

OK. To quell controversy, how about get an M1 carbine in ADDITION to your pistols and shotguns. That to me is a very good solution. I already have a long gun so that would prepare me for just about anything.
 
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Robert T. Shimek once wrote an interesting article about the M1 Carbine as a viable home defense arm. He made a pretty good case, IMHO. One of his principal points was that most people can shoot it much more accurately than they can shoot a handgun. That's why the Army developed it in the first place.


Not to mention the 15 round magazine capacity. Thirty, if you really believe you may need that many. I never had a feeding problem with USGI mags, but my shooting with soft points has been pretty limited.


You'll never be able to convince people that one particular arm is "best" for home defense. For many, a handgun is so much more, well, handy. For those who want a long gun, the shotgun certainly has many knowledgeable proponents. But in many, many situations, I believe the M1 Carbine would be an excellent choice.
 
I have a real nice Winchester M1 Carbine, its a good shooter too, but it stays in the safe, never considered it for home defense. I guess if I was expecting an eminant home invasion , I would want a rifle but for the average situation, I handgun fits on the nightstand nicely.
 
Retired Chief said:
There are a number of reasons why whatever you like may be the best home defense weapon. For years, in community safety classes, I recommended a 20 guage pump shotgun loaded with #6 shot.
A shot gun is very intimidating. When you rack the action on the shotgun, you create immediate psychological dominance. Over-penetration is not a major concern, unless you live in a cheap apartment house. You don't have to be an expert shooter to hit your target. Recoil is mild enough for the little woman to handle while still giving excellent results at household ranges.
Pick what you want, but think about the intimidation factor (better not to have to shoot someone and still get the results you want), over-penetration, and likelihood of hitting a target in the dark while overloaded with adrenaline.
Click to expand...

Racking the shotgun? Watched too many movies?

I could see racking the shotgun as scaring your typical thief who is not armed. If the thief has a gun though you have now alerted him of your location and that you are armed. He/she will now be prepared to shoot you when you approach

#6 shot may hurt like hell but I would never trust it to down a suspect immediately, especially if the suspect is wearing heavy clothing. I've shot turkeys from 20 yards with high brass, #4 shot turkey loads who after being shot ran off. I would not trust the #6 shot with my life.
 
Watched too many movies?
Nope. Carried a pump shotgun in the squad car for over 20 years. I will admit we didn't have mopes armed with full-auto weapons then, but armed mopes wanted no part of the shotgun (or at least they didn't want the part I was going to give them!)
As I said to start with, there are a number of reasons why whatever you like may be the best home defense weapon (for you). Most of the people who attended the public safety sessions were NOT firearm experts, and probably couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn if on the inside shooting out, and, with the exception of a few women concerned about the ex showing up with harm in his heart, most were concerned about the common, run-of-the-mill burgler. If you have reason to expect armed perps intending to use deadly force on you or your family, the considerations are much different and your decisions must be made on the expected circumstances. You didn't state in this post what you do prefer, but I hop you keep in mind the abilities of you and any other "good guy" shooter in the house, as well as overpenetration issues if you have close neighbors or other people sleeping in your residence.
 
Retired Chief I actually use handguns and a shotgun for home defense. But when I saw this article I said to myself very loudly.

"I Need to share this information with the folks on the forum. So I decided to share with you."
 
Retired Chief said:
Most of the people who attended the public safety sessions were NOT firearm experts, and probably couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn if on the inside shooting out...
Click to expand...

Why does this myth persist?

At common indoor ranges, the spread of a shotgun isn't very large at all. A few inches at most. It requires as much aim as a rifle or handgun to employ.

The strength of the shotgun is the amount of energy delivered to the target, the relatively large wound created, and the variety of ammunition available. With one weapon, you can have a slug gun useful out to short-rifle ranges for big-country defense and hunting, buckshot for intermediate range, and birdshot for minimizing overpenetration. The disadvantage is the very small magazine size, limited rate of fire (for pump-actions, in normal operation), and propensity for stoppages. On that last count, a pump-action is very easy to short-stroke under pressure--3-gunners do it all the time, despite extensive practice--while semiautomatics, while more reliable than ever, can be ammunition-sensitive. Although if I were choosing a shotgun today, it would undoubtedly be a semiauto.

Racking a pump action as a form of intimidation is a terrible idea. It forewarns your attacker(s), alerts them to your location, destroys your tactical advantage of surprise, and requires you to either fumble your limited ammo or sit around with a weapon not at the ready. Think about it--if you've already retreated your family members as far as possible, which normally means bedrooms, and the Bad Guys are still coming, it's pretty clear that they're not just there to steal your cookie jar money. Very apparently, they're not afraid of contact with their intended victims, which places them in a very special class of predator. You're in a life-or-death fight with these people. Act accordingly.

brasky said:
#6 shot may hurt like hell but I would never trust it to down a suspect immediately, especially if the suspect is wearing heavy clothing. I've shot turkeys from 20 yards with high brass, #4 shot turkey loads who after being shot ran off. I would not trust the #6 shot with my life.
Click to expand...

Birdshot is recommended for homes where the largest wall-to-wall distance is in the vicinity of 20-35 feet, or about 1/3rd of your anecdotal distance. At the ranges you discuss, buckshot is the clear choice for self-defense.

That said, you are correct in taking into account what your attacker will likely be wearing in your SD arithmetic.

Would I use a birdshot load in winters around here? It's well under 20 at the moment. Today, I went out expecting to be outside for an hour or two, and wore a longsleeve t-shirt, cotton pullover, fleece vest, light down vest, and down coat. Overdressed for the weather, but I usually wear enough to stay warm in the event of an emergency, car trouble, etc. In deep winter, I would expect any burglar or ne'er-do-well to be at least as well-padded.

I dunno. I haven't studied birdshot ballistics that much, because my choice for home defense would be either my .45 ACP 1911, or my .44 Magnum 629 loaded with hot .44 Spl ammo. I already know I can't be motivated to use a shotgun enough to be proficient with it, but I shoot the 1911 and 629 a whole hell of a lot. Nothing against my .38--I wouldn't want to get hit with it--but I can fire the 629 with my chosen load as quickly and as accurately.
 
I can see the M-1 carbine, in good working order with decent performing modern ammo might be a great home defense weapon for someone, maybe not everyone. I think they're sweet to shoot, but for a home defense weapon, need to have the capability to mount a weapons light. I seem to recall that the 30-round magazines weren't all that reliable, but the 15s were rock solid. Still, there are some full sized 9mm pistols with more capacity.

As far as the legendary "racking" of the (shotgun) slide, the sound of an M-16 being locked and loaded on a silently tense night had the same psychological sound effect. I don't think that a homeowner chambering a round in his/her M-1 carbine would be any less impressive.
 
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