I have to express my concern.

[Maximumbob54]

I see both ends of the spectrum being said. They either say Glock/M&P or they say S&W 642.

Sure, either one is easy to use and maintain, but either one can be a hard learner for the first time shooter with little or no guidance. Add to that you also hear them say they want home defense type ammo and get handed a box of +P that will be their first time shooting and they get the short end of the stick in two ways.

But it's getting harder and harder to find a good medium weight K frame .38 special and get offered a box of some decent standard pressure 158 grain soft hollow point SWC's. That combo is darn near perfect for the bulk of people and yet that combo is not far away from being desribed as rare as hen's teeth.

I guess the GMROI is better on something half plastic so that is what they push. It seems like a dis-service.

I should also add that while my girl had a M&P9c, she also has me guiding her hand with picking the fit in the hand and the ammo to feed it. And she also goes to the range to practice with it instead of it just going right into the nightstand to collect dust until the someday possibility of needing to use it.

But I still sleep with a pair of .357 magnum revolvers.

 

[johnsonl]

The local LGS is not in business to promote the shooting sports or gun safety. They want to sell a lot of expensive plastic guns that have huge profit margins. Those used revolvers will only bring a marginal profit, if any.

 

[old&slow]

I work in a small sporting goods store. Like others, I'm semi-retired. Many people who have never had or fired a gun come into the shop looking for a Glock. Some want a Desert Eagle. Movie stuff.

I start off telling them that we all are paid by the hour, without any form of commission. Then I tell them I"ll ultimately sell them whatever they want, but if they want my opinion, I'll offer it. Sometimes, I'll tell them I would or wouldn't buy a spevific gun for my wife, but if they really want it, I'll sell it to them.

If they ask for a recommendation, I'll suggest a 20 gauge shotgun; 2/3 of the shot with 1/2 the recoil of a 12 gauge. I point out that an 18" barrel and youth or bantam stock will provide a little more manuverability inside the home than full sized shotguns. I rarely suggest a pistol grip.

If they don't like the above suggestion, I'll suggest a revolver, either a .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I tell them that the .357 will work great with +P .38 Special ammo.

If they want a semi auto I'll show them what they want to see and go through the steps required to fire a round. Then, I'll ask them if they feel comfortable to remember all the steps while in a high stress situation, when their adrenalin is pumping, eyesight is reduced and motor skills are not the best.

Whatever they choose, I'll recommend they rent a few guns from one of two local ranges. Regardless of the outcome, I suggest they get a copy of "Guns 101" by David Steier. David, aka Rolan Craps, is an NRA certified Master Instructor. His book is sold by Amazon.com for around eighteen dollars.

In the end, I'll sell them whatever they choose. I can do only so much. Then it's all up to them.

I agree with everything, except I never suggest a pistol grip shotgun (more movie stuff)
I don't think there is anything wrong with a 1911 ,, a wheel gun , or a plastic gun. IF you learn How to use it.
I often tell customers " 3 O'clock in the morning, when someone is breaking in your front door, isn't the time to learn how to operate your firearm. Learn how to Use it and Practice."

It's also quite hard to sell a $750 revolver to someone when
a $450 "wonder 9" is right next to it..
( and yes I would like to see more K & L frames available at a lower cost).

Then you get the folks that come in and want the $125 Hi-Point or Cobra .. So, I sell them what they want.
IF they ask my opinion, I tell them. If they know what they know and don't want to be confused by the facts ,, that's fine too..
Profit margin Has Nothing to do with it !
No one has ever paid me enough to lie..

 

[SmilinEd]

I doubt that you could get a big box or even a local lgs sales person to ask the inexperienced buyer to go ahead and show that they can easily load 16 rounds in a double stack magazine without a magazine loader. Younger sales people also do not have much experience with arthritis which can make the revolver/semi auto decision pretty simple.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I'd say something.

 

[Wheel Fan]

I was in a pawn shop and a lady asked a clerk about a home protection/conceal carry gun. The clerk would say 'that one's on sale' or 'there's a clean one'. Didn't matter if they were large caliber/semi auto. I butted in and casually asked to see a .38 revolver the clerk had in the case. Nice and compact S&W 5-shot. I opened it up and showed the customer it was empty - she said "why'd you do that?" "To show you it's empty" I said. "Does that gun make a lot of noise"? she said. "It let's out a good pop" I said. I handed it to her and she said it felt light and would fit in her purse. She then points it at the floor and dry fires it. I'm cringing. I thanked the clerk and it was put it back in the case. They had a display board with the different ammunition sizes on it and I showed the customer the .38 compared to others. I then convinced the her to try to find a revolver similar to the one I showed her and to please take a safety/conceal class for new shooters at a range before attempting to load it or shoot it. The clerk just shrugged and walked away. The customer thanked me and left.

 

[captainjohnsofd]

I too work at an LGS part-time. I am over 60 years old, have a Bachelor's Degree and am a Registered Nurse besides being a career Fire Officer. I evaluate a customer just as I do an employee in my command to make an intelligent recommendation. I keep an open mind but the "KISS" principle is always a primary concern. Older customers have less dexterity and need all the help they can get with the manual of arms with a with any handgun. This is where the revolver shines in my view. Still I allow the customer to make the decision.

 

[RonS]

Lots of reasons, but I think that the main reason is simply that the compact 9mm or .40 is simply considered "the" gun now. The factories promote them like mad. The gun magazines are extensions of the gun makers advertising departments, and the entertainment industry shows every good and bad guy shooting a Sig or Glock or whatever when they show someone shooting anything.

 

[peyton]

My niece's boyfriend approached me tonight for advice on his upcoming gun purchase. He did his research, pricing, and wanted to get my input as well. I was impressed with the work he did.

 

[Sclays]

Gunshops and advice

My neighbor had never owned a handgun. Our state recently went "shall issue". Gunshop sold him a 6" Taurus Judge for concealed carry.

 

[K1500]

You think that's bad, I went truck shopping and the salesmen were all pushing the new 2012 pickups with auto transmissions on this new guy. I took him aside and explained to him that he really needed a stick shift 1964 Ford to start with. 400 horsepower is way too much for a beginner, especially with all the new switches and doodads. If it worked then, it will work now.

Seriously guys, they are just tools, and there is nothing wrong with a newbie getting an auto and some good instruction (unless you think a newbie and a revolver need no instruction). There are practical reasons why autos dominate the defensive market. Revolvers are not a bad choice, but autos aren't either.

 

[UDR2]

I'm a wheel gun fan, but I would not recommend one to a novice who does not plan on training with it extensively. Revolvers are reliable guns. But that is only 1/2 the equation. The other 1/2 is that one has to hit the target one aims at; and the harder the trigger pull, the more a novice will throw the gun to their weak side when jerking the trigger. A near miss is still a miss.

We all know the stats about the high percentage of misses that occur in gun fights with opponents only 7-10 feet apart. Jerking the trigger has to account for a significant number of those misses.

The last thing one wants is to be shot and killed by his/her own gun, wrenched from the hand by a perp who was able to grab the gun because the innocent party lacked the skill to use it properly. So my first piece of advice for the customers in the OP's opening salvo would be that they do not buy a hand gun unless they are resolved to train with that gun - and then to continue to use it (at a range) on a somewhat regular basis.

I understand the economic pressures that can be brought to bear on clerks in gun stores... but all of us who own, carry, and/or sell guns have a responsibility that goes beyond earning an honest dollar. Just my own $.02

 

[papajohn428]

I'm doing a teaching session in the morning with two sweet old ladies who live alone in crummy neighborhoods and have decided to look into owning firearms. Neither is convinced they have to have one, but they want to know more, so they asked me to show them some options. I'll be taking a 20 gauge pump shotgun, a Bersa .380, a Browning Buckmark, a 625 in 45ACP, a 2" 642 in 38, and a 64 four-inch 38. There will be a lot of emphasis on how the grips feel, and how clear the sights are, and once they're familiar with how they operate and how to clear them, we'll get around to loading and unloading with dummy rounds, then live ammo.

I consider the 380 a minimal caliber for SD, and the Bersa is so snappy in recoil for such a light bullet I think it will be rejected pretty quickly. Both women are on the small side and one has minor issues with arthritis. The 625 will be there so they can see how big heavy revolvers feel, and I doubt either will volunteer to shoot it. The Buckmark will be shot a lot, to get them used to acquiring a sight picture and managing a fairly light trigger. Both will get about an hour of safety training first, particularly stressing muzzle awareness and trigger control. There will be NO fingers on triggers until sights are on target......that one will be pounded into their heads until I'm sure they're clear on it.

I think snubbies are mostly guns for the experts and more experienced folks, not someone who is new to shooting. I think a 4-inch revolver in 38 Special is easy to learn, easy to teach, and not overly powerful, while still bringing good ballistics to the party. My "teaching" gun is a Model 64 neutered to DA only, and it's what I'll recommend they get. If handguns don't seem like the best solution, we'll move on to the 20-gauge pump, and see how they do with that.

Just like I did with my kids, I'll start off the range session by getting everyone fitted with good electronic muffs and comfortable eyewear, then I'll fire a 357 into a full gallon jug, and show them the kind of power they're going to be dealing with. That tends to extend their attention span.

If nothing really floats their boats, we'll try a second session with other guns. I don't have any Tupperware, but I do have a selection of other guns if they think they want to try an autopistol.

Aside from the safety aspects, the one thing I try to stress is that their choice is based on what THEY like, not what I think is best for them. I'm a lot more concerned with their ability to place their shots than caliber or bullet construction.

One TINY 62-year old lady I trained several years ago tried all my guns from 45 down to 380, and wound up buying a 9-shot 22 revolver. She is absolutely deadly with it out to 25 yards or better, and shoots it DA only, fast and well. I would hate to go up against her..........dynamite comes in small packages.

 

[oldandfatonaharley]

It would be better if the salesman showed an inexperienced prospective shooter a range of products, gave the pros and cons, let them handle them a bit, and then let them decide. I was able to do something like this at the range a couple of weeks ago with a fairly inexperienced woman who was considering a gun purchase. We brought several handguns, with calibers from .22 LR to .44 Mag., and various operating systems. In the end, she actually shot the best with my 686, and found the manual of arms easiest to manage, so that's what she'll be looking to buy.

 

[UDR2]

Papajohn428, I like the way you think!

Just a comment on the Bersa .380: In my opinion only, the blowback design was invented by a fellow who enjoyed inflicting pain on others, and buyers of blowback guns like to inflict pain upon themselves. (I'm just kidding, of course.)

I used to own a fine all stainless steel Sig P230... weighed 32 oz IIRC. Some of my .357 magnums were easier on the hand to shoot. In contrast, my little Kahr P380, which weighs in at only 10 ounces, is a joy to shoot. It has a locked breach mechanism, and the moving barrel absorbs a lot of felt recoil. It is my wife's second most favorite gun, and your little ladies might enjoy the Kahr (which is as reliable as it is easy to shoot).

 

[CajunBass]

I haven't read all the replies, but I gotta go along with those who say they don't see a problem with the salesman's recomendations.

I'm a revolver guy. When my wife wanted to learn to shoot I started her off with a revolver. She didn't like it (almost left her right then and there). She rented some guns and liked a Glock . So we got her a Glock . She loved it. Still does. Since then she's learned to like revolvers too, but she'll still tell you her Glock 19 is her favorite.

She doesn't seem to have a lot of trouble with the instructions "Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot."

With either gun.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

I do not think a Glock recommendation is poor, at all.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

They're extremely reliable, so clearing malfunctions isn't a big concern.

However, retracting the slide for people without sufficient hand strength or with other physical challenges IS a big concern.

Hi capacity is always a good thing, and of course are less likely to need reloading from a newb.

High capacity can lead to "spray and pray" shooting. Also, there is a documented tendency for people under stress to shoot until their gun is empty which in the case of a high capacity semiautomatic means lots of bullets flying about and a need to reload.

As said, they have no safety and have a consistent easy to use trigger.

Just like most double action revolvers.

All of that make them great for self defense and for newbs.

Not necessarily.

None of this even considers the horrible (by comparison) double action trigger of revolvers.

You no doubt mean the long, smooth, and heavy double action pull of revolvers that reduces the chance of accidental/negligent discharges under stress.

I shoot IDPA...

Uh-huh. Are you a qualified instructor as well?

and have seen plenty of shooters yank the first shot on DA/SA autos because of the DA. And that's under the minor stress of a timer beep. These aren't even new shooters and some of them go to the range and practice.

Obviously they don't practice properly or enough.

Good luck to the newb, who never shoots, is in a high stress situation, and has a 14 pound, long trigger pull.

While I don't advocate or recommend "...never shoot[ing]...," the "..14 pound, long trigger pull..." reduces the chance of accidental/negligent discharges under stress.

While they're not my favorite, plastic guns and autos bring a lot of advantages to the table that wheel guns can't.

I fail to see how the sales person made a bad recommendation.

The manual of arms for a polymer semi-automatic pistol (or combat tupperware) is complex and confusing for a non-dedicated shooter. It is not an ideal choice for a beginner who may not have or get personal training to drill proper procedures.

ECS

 

[bananaman]

I have 6 .38's and .357's total, the one thing that I like about autos more, is many shooters are too lazy to pick up their brass, so I scarf it up! Have plenty of 9's, and .40's to load. Sold off a bunch of .45 too. I even found a box of perfect .38 brass at the gun club.( yeah, I got it out of the garbage can) I have 4 autos, but revolvers go to the club every time! I always recommend Smiths to others! Bob

 

[papajohn428]

A quick update on the range session yesterday:

Some idiot forgot one of the ammo boxes, so there was no 22 ammo, and the Buckmark was handled, but not shot. One of the ladies spent most of the time watching the tinier woman doing the shooting, and didn't participate too much. The one who did the shooting was totally unfamiliar with getting a good sight picture, and wrestled with a comfortable grip, it turns out she's right-handed and left eye dominant and has very little upper body strength. So what was her preferred bullet launcher? The 5" 625! The 64 and 642 were both DAO and required more hand strength to manage the trigger pull than she could muster without issues. But cocking the 625 to single action got her on paper, and she eventually relaxed and had a good time with it. She liked those big old holes in the paper, too.

I'd forgotten how foreign the concept of aiming is to non-gunny people, I grew up with Mattel rifles and BB guns and was point-shooting before I was five. This woman had no such abilities, and getting her to hit an antifreeze jug from 20 feet with a 20-gauge pump was not easy. She was okay aiming left-to-right, but kept shooting either high or low. But she wants to do it again, I brought eight guns of various types and will bring several others next time. Rifles are out, but I think a short shotgun might work for her with some practice.

At this point, I'm thinking her ideal handgun might be a compact SA or DA/SA 9mm that she can keep cocked and locked, racking the slide is difficult for her but starting with the slide open and inserting a magazine worked quite well. She can lock the slide open, but it takes some time and effort.

She was NOT impressed with the .380, though she liked the size and weight. But she shot a jug with it at 10 feet, and it didn't even fall over, it just sat there and gurgled. She said she wanted something that would impress a bad guy more than that. Just out of curiosity, I'm gonna take my 1911 with some target loads, and see how she likes it.

This is getting interesting. I've taught a lot of women and kids in the past 30 years, this one is a challenge!

 

[blujax01]

Only because it's one of my all time favorite movies:

Riggs: "Six shooter, huh?"
Murtaugh: "Mm-hmm ..."
Riggs: "Lotta old timers carry those."