I just called the Wisconsin AG to figure out what 'school grounds' are.

[Lost Lake]

I read the law many times and I'm not a simpleton, but I couldn't figure out if I could have a concealed gun on my person in my car while I drop the kids off at school.

Well the AG made it clear. Everything the school owns can be considered school grounds, all the way across their football fields and to the ends of the parking lots. So I cannot have a weapon on my person when I drop off the kids. Any gun must be unloaded and encased.

Now what is encased I asked? Is a glove compartment considered enclosed and encased? He said that is not specifically called out in the law, but it would probably be okay. But then what about a sock? They have socks for long guns that meet the definition, or what about in a paper bag? (That one the AG offered ) What if it is in a bag? I said no, it isn't clasped, latched, tied, snapped... then the AG said but it could be consider sealed if there's a paper clip or tape on the bag....

Well that was fun, talking 'what if' with the Wis AG. But it clearly shows that not everything is clearly defined.

I will unload my gun and put it somewhere.... I usually have a case in the truck for it. If I am in someone else's car and we have to go in a school parking lot then I'll have to try a glove compartment or trunk or something....

 

[papajohn428]

It's not about what the vague law actually says, it's what they feel like charging you with when you get caught violating the public safety rules they arbitrarily made up.

 

[s&wchad]

You have to start somewhere, be patient. Most states that have adopted a "shall issue" law have amended their laws for the better. Michigan started out the same way defining school property, but the law was later changed to exclude parking facilities from their pistol free status. It takes time to iron out the bugs and address shortcomings.

 

[kraigwy]

I carry per the LEOSA and I'm exempt from most state laws so I don't know about state laws, but what I do fall under is the Fed Safe School Act (or what ever its called) that states the gun has to be unloaded and locked in a case.

I spend a lot of time going to my Granddaughters Vollyball and Basketball games across the state.

I leave the S&W blue plastic case in my vehicle. Before I enter the school grounds, I slimply unload and put my 642 in the case it came with, and lock it with the lock provided.

After the game and I start my treck home, I simply get the revolver out of the box, load it and stick it back in my pocket.

Regardless of what your state law says, you need to research the fed Safe School Act.

 

[andrewb70]

It's not about what the vague law actually says, it's what they feel like charging you with when you get caught violating the public safety rules they arbitrarily made up.

Exactly...

Andrew

 

[oldman45]

I am not going to say I am a criminal but we all break laws daily.

It is not feasible to stop before entering a post office to unload your firearm and put it some where so it will not be on your person or in your car while on post office property. Yet it is the law.

The law HERE and a few other places, say no firearms within 1000 feet of a school ground. That would include driving past a school in your car. There is an exclusion if your home falls in that stated distance but do not walk your dog outside while carrying.

If people used common sense, they may not go to extremes. If I were to be dropping someone off at a school, I can assure you that I would not unload my sidearm or store it in a locked container. Again, that is me and I am not telling anyone what to do. If an Assistant Principal had not kept a gun in his vehicle on school property, a school shooting would have been a lot worse. He may have broken a law but he used common sense.

What is the old saying, "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried out by six."

 

[Nemo288]

The University (which I work for) had to completely amend
their policy. Just the buildings themselves are off limits.
Everywhere else is now legit. You can tell there is some
culture shock going on here as I read between the lines of all
the email notices on the subject we get spammed with.
Even so, just going into downtown Madison packing seems like
kind of a futile gesture as there is almost nowhere you can
get out of your car and go to. Safe zone, my a**.

...Nemo...

 

[setxn]

The Gun free School Zone Law is Federal so it is not just LA. and few other places.In Texas with a CHL carry on the premises(parking lots, driveways,open land etc.) is legal.Buildings,sports facilities,school vehicles and school run functions are not legal unless it is firearm related. Travel within 1000 ft of a school is illegal even under MPA (Motorist Protection Act) unless you are CHL licensed. I don't think there is a documented arrest of someone for violating this law singularly, it might have been included along with other charges.

 

[Nemo288]

The new Wisconsin statutes have specifically eliminated the
1000 foot rule for permit holders. So here we have another
state's rights issue. Wisc. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r.

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/ConcealedCarry/ccw-faq-20111020.pdf

Page 37

Also check Wisc. Stat. 948.61(3)(e) which specifically allows the possession of dangerous
weapons while picking up or dropping off students. Same document. Page 38.

...Nemo...

 

[blujax01]

I am not going to say I am a criminal but we all break laws daily.

It is not feasible to stop before entering a post office to unload your firearm and put it some where so it will not be on your person or in your car while on post office property. Yet it is the law.

Gotta disagree with you, Oldman - I do exactly that each and every time I go to the Post Office.

Correct me if I'm wrong (you usually do) but doesn't the Law say you can't carry on Postal property. It doesn't prohibit you from leaving it in your vehicle while you go inside.

Out of the holster and into the console.

What's not feasible about that?

Oh, by the way - I do not break the law every day.

 

[oldman45]

Gotta disagree with you, Oldman - I do exactly that each and every time I go to the Post Office.

Correct me if I'm wrong (you usually do) but doesn't the Law say you can't carry on Postal property. It doesn't prohibit you from leaving it in your vehicle while you go inside.

Out of the holster and into the console.

What's not feasible about that?

Oh, by the way - I do not break the law every day.

Ok, let me see if you can answer this.

You live in a home, right? Is the dwelling your property or the land around it as well?

Post Office Parking lot is Post Office property. If I enter the parking lot with a gun in the car, I just violated a Federal law.

A Prosecutor for the District Attorney and I had this conversation a while back. He and I were in court together and we needed to go to the Post Office. Both of us were armed and he agreed, we could both end up in a Federal jail for being in the car with guns. As much as I like him, I decided it was his car and I was about to give him my gun as a present should someone stop us. He can stand the time behind bars.

 

[oldman45]

Oh, by the way - I do not break the law every day.

Yes you do. Everyone does. There are laws that many people do not know about or have not paid attention to the law.

Here in Louisiana, it is illegal to make a left turn without check for overtaking traffic, opposing traffic and not giving a hand signal. I do not worry about overtaking traffic as I make a left turn, especially into my driveway.

An employee of a funeral home cannot give a person a light for their cigarette.


The Ohio driver’s education manual states that you must honk the horn whenever you pass another car.

There are laws broken every day by honest citizens.

 

[blujax01]

Are you breaking the law because the gun is in your car or because you are carrying it?

I believe the law says "in" a Federal facility.

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2004-08-06

a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

 

[blujax01]

Yes you do. Everyone does. There are laws that many people do not know about or have not paid attention to the law.

Here in Louisiana, it is illegal to make a left turn without check for overtaking traffic, opposing traffic and not giving a hand signal. I do not worry about overtaking traffic as I make a left turn, especially into my driveway.

An employee of a funeral home cannot give a person a light for their cigarette.


The Ohio driver’s education manual states that you must honk the horn whenever you pass another car.

There are laws broken every day by honest citizens.

I did not drive today.

I do not work in a funeral home.

I do not smoke.

And I certainly did not purposefully break a Federal Law and say to do so does not make me a criminal...

I did not break the law today.

I'll save us both a lot of grief. I'll concede here and now.

Out.

 

[oldman45]

I did not drive today.

I do not work in a funeral home.

I do not smoke.

And I certainly did not purposefully break a Federal Law and say to do so does not make me a criminal...

I did not break the law today.

I'll save us both a lot of grief. I'll concede here and now.

Out.

There are laws that apply to you, in your area that you unintentionally break. I avoided violation of speed laws but I bet you break those as well.

Either way, I will not assume you are a criminal.

 

[ogilvyspecial]

Are you breaking the law because the gun is in your car or because you are carrying it?

I believe the law says "in" a Federal facility.

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2004-08-06

a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

It is my understanding that even the Post Office Parking Lots are off-limits when it comes to firearms.

 

[oldman45]

Are you breaking the law because the gun is in your car or because you are carrying it?

I believe the law says "in" a Federal facility.

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2004-08-06

a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

What you or I believe may not be what the law says. We agree on many things but the law says we are wrong.
__________________________________________
In 2010, the U.S. Supreme Court held in McDonald v. Chicago that the Second Amendment through the Fourteenth Amendment, also prohibits States and political subdivisions (e.g., cities) from prohibiting an individual's right to possess a hand gun in the home; but, as in the Heller case, State laws may restrict possession of firearms by felons, etc.

Prior to these cases,Congress enacted and Presidents have signed laws regarding the possession of firearms: the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968. Under federal law, an American citizen (and certain legal aliens, see later sections) may possess firearms and ammunition on his person, in his home, in his business, and in his vehicle during intrastate and interstate travel, except:

a. Inside or on federal property, § 930, exceptions exist.

----------------------------------------
I know (a.) says inside or on federal property as found in the Federal Rules of Law.

39 CFR 232.1
Title 39 - Postal Service
Chapter I - United States Postal Service
Subchapter D - Organization and Administration
Part 232 - Conduct on Postal Property
232.1 - Conduct on Postal Property.

Paragraph L

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

So technically, even if you just need to drop off a letter in the outside drive-up mail box and never get out of your car, it's against the law.

I rest my case.

 

[setxn]

Army Corps Of Engineers (ACOE) land falls under the same Federal laws except that their property is not always well defined or posted.There are quite a few parks-State,County etc- that are ACOE land that most people are not aware of but are breaking Federal laws even if they are legal in their state. This is not normally actively enforced, infact I believe funding for enforcement were taken away--but it is still breaking Federal law at this time. There is movement toward fixing this .

 

[Lost Lake]

The new Wisconsin statutes have specifically eliminated the
1000 foot rule for permit holders. So here we have another
state's rights issue. Wisc. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r.

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/ConcealedCarry/ccw-faq-20111020.pdf

Page 37

Also check Wisc. Stat. 948.61(3)(e) which specifically allows the possession of dangerous
weapons while picking up or dropping off students. Same document. Page 38.

...Nemo...

Nemo: Before you get yourself into trouble I want to clear the 'dangerous weapon' issue up.

If you read carefully, and I don't know why they have to write these laws in legalese so they are so hard to understand, but a dangerous weapon does not include a firearm. Firearms have their own rules.

Quote" It is a crime to possess a dangerous weapon (other than a firearm or BB or
pellet gun) on or in any school building, school grounds, recreation area, athletic
field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration.
Wis. Stat. § 948.61. /quote

And then the exception:

quote " The following are exceptions to the prohibition on possessing dangerous weapons on school premises by the following persons:

A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(e).
/quote


The AG and I discussed this quite plainly as I asked if this is an exception, and he adamantly said NO. You cannot have a firearm on school property unless it is unloaded and encased or locked in a gun rack.

Edit to add: A FIREARM is NOT a dangerous weapon in the Wisconsin law. It is a firearm. So the rules for a dangerous weapon do NOT pertain to firearms. Does that make sense?

It doesn't to me either. Let's try to get that changed.

 

[Nemo288]

Thanks for the details. I am pretty much legalese illiterate.
Good thing I don't have any students to pick up or drop off

As I have pointed out, carrying in and around Madison is an exercise
in futility. I do have one or 2 guns in the truck but they mostly live
in the smuggling hole the manufacturer kindly provided.
I know, I know. When the fan gets brown I'll probably be in the wrong place
thanks to all the "Safe Zones". That particular double-speak always does
rile me up some.

Sadly both my employer's politics are somewhere to the left of Fidel Castro.


...Nemo...