I may be changing my mind about the Manchin-Toomey compromise (ed: I didn't)

Looks likd David Kopel isn't a fan...

David Kopel, another 2A rights supporter that I respect, has posted this criticism of the amendment today:

http://www.volokh.com/2013/04/15/th...toomey-are-actually-a-bonanza-of-gun-control/

I think there are a lot of potential problems with the way this proposal has been written. I can just about guarantee that even if were perfectly written now, it won't survive the legislative process without a lot of changes being made to it by both anti and pro-gun sides. We definitely want to keep track of this one.
 
I might be dense or just stuck in my ways but threads like this confuse the heck out of me. I just finished rereading the Constitution again, and the only hint anywhere that anything in it, including the Bill of Rights, is open to discussion comes under Article V and that requires a Constitutional Convention. Short of that, it is what it is. So why should there be any negotiation regarding any part of it? :confused:
 
Pace, I have to agree with you. This is not about 20 children that were murdered (I feel for their loss) This is about taking our guns any way they can get them and destroying the constitution.I agree with other posts here that the country is being destroyed financially from within. When the economy crashed...the banks just got back all the wealth from the people.Government (us) bought back mortgages and paid more than was owed on the mortgage. The home owners were nailed to the wall and lost it all, the bank had no intention of working with them and wanted to forclose (all to their benifit) I do believe that something is coming down. I am not into conspirices....but something is wrong with this whole picture. We need to get this country back.....keeping our guns is a matter of will....I have the will...and they will not take mine without paying a heavy price to get them. I believe Calif and NY will be where the "test" will start and see how sucessful they are with that. I expect them to try and take them from Vets that have had PTSD.....and there are a lot of them....just my thoughts but we need to stay on top of this like never before. I am convinced that taking our guns is their end game and they have a short time to get it done....but this is not going to go well for them and they are opening pandoras box.
There are steps to take to preserve your ability to respond and let them show their hand. Never keep all your eggs in one basket and never keep them where they are expected to be....same with ammo. If they do come for them, it will be inforce (I went through this once before) My guns and ammo were not at home...and they left with a little ammo (5000 rounds) I was not home when they came and after hiring an attorney $5000.....I got my ammo back and case nol-prossed by the state. The State police wanted to know where my guns were...I refused to tell them anything and make sure you do the same if they ask. I did not blame the Cops...they were doing the job they were hired to do and had a warrent, its the system thats was wrong, I was treated well by them. But...it taught me a good lesson....keep your guns and ammo dispursed. It will avoid a deadly confrontation if they ever come to take them...and they will get nothing....once they have shown their hand...then there are steps that can be taken to protect yourself. I do believe we are going to see this happen if our elected officals do not get it right....and I have reason to believe they are not working for us. Rand Paul is fighting for our rights and a few others.....but time will tell.....stay vigilent and we need to back up the Constitution with everything we have. We do have the numbers, we have the ability, we just need the will...and stand together. There is no way they can take the guns from a determined population....they would just plain lose and cause a chain reaction that no one wants to see. We need to fight anything they want to pass right now and I trust nothing they have planned for us. They have lost my trust and will never get it back. I honor the men that have died for this country to keep us free...their sacrifice will not be invein and we all need to insure that we remain free no matter what the cost to us. Our friends, our family, our children and grand children deserve to live in freedom and I will not let them down, this is not about me...they can not take my freedom and I will pay what ever price it takes to prevent them from taking freedom from the people that are precious in my life and the future generation of Americans. Trampling our Constitution and our Bill of Rights will not be tolerated, this we need to promise our future generation so help us God. Good men paid for our freedom...we owe no less to our children.
The second amendment must be defended at any cost...without the second...the rest is just words on paper. They are not taking our liberty teeth. Stay prepared and let them show their hand...let them cross the line first. If we ever allow them to breach the second amendment...our freedom is gone for ever, and we will not have the teeth to get it back again...so lets not go there. We the People are the bottom line when it comes to defending the Constitution and defend it we must. If our elected officals do not defend the second, it falls on us....and its a responsibility that we can not turn our back on. I hope it does not come to that.....but the choice is theirs...not ours....the responsibility to defend it is ours and ours alone. Stay vigilent, stay save and stay prepared. Make good friends.
 
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FWIW, I've been sending my emails opposing any new restrictions to my representatives consistently for quite awhile now. See the other threads with links to popvox, the GOA capwiz mailing system, and the NRA version of the same. GOA and NRA are on record as opposing, btw.

I just can't figure out why Gottlieb would be saying that this would be a win for gunowners if it isn't. The fact that he has put this out there in advance of the vote makes me think the is just looking to have the anti's kill it and allow the progunners to say, "Hey, we tried, here was a reasonable compromise." But it sure seems like playing with fire.
 
2hawk said:
FWIW, I've been sending my emails opposing any new restrictions to my representatives consistently for quite awhile now. See the other threads with links to popvox, the GOA capwiz mailing system, and the NRA version of the same. GOA and NRA are on record as opposing, btw.

I just can't figure out why Gottlieb would be saying that this would be a win for gunowners if it isn't. The fact that he has put this out there in advance of the vote makes me think the is just looking to have the anti's kill it and allow the progunners to say, "Hey, we tried, here was a reasonable compromise." But it sure seems like playing with fire.
Click to expand...
2hawk, I believe he is being used....don't know why and not willing to speculate. I just do not trust anything right now and instinct is telling me to be very vigilent. I just heard about Boston....what is happening to our country? If I know one thing...this is no time to give up our Constitution or our second amendment. The right to keep and bear arms is being attacked....and it needs to be defended like we have never defended anything in our life. I do not trust our Senators, representatives, or the supreme court to defend it....and when the supreme court does not want to defend the second....then it falls on us "We the People"
I love this country and the Constitution and Bill of rights are what we are all about. I am trying real hard not to get political about an issure that is so important to me that I would give my life to defend it. Since I left for NZ in Dec....my country has changed in a few months like I never dreamed possible. Our second amendment does not need the blessing of the stare to carry our arms outside the home...try it in NH and see what happens there. I am but one....but there are millions like me that will not give up our rights. The Constitution and the Second Amendment are bigger than all of us....but it depends on our will, our spirit, and our willingness to scarifice what ever it takes to keep that in tact. Lets keep our faith in the Constitution and keep each others back...because it may be all we have in the end. Freedom is too precious to trust to the care of politicions...its up to us and there may be no one to do it for us.
 
BH, I am with you. But I saw an account on another forum of how Gottlieb did this same maneuver in WA with proposed anti-gun legislation, and he managed to load it up with enough things that were good for gun owners that it finally was pulled by it's sponsors. I think that's going on here. He is a smart guy, and has a good record of accomplishment. But we're up against some cunning opponents, and it just looks like a dangerous game he's playing. Not to mention the fall out and dissension in the gun rights community that this is causing.

My understanding is that the amendment will be voted on tomorrow, so I guess we'll see what happens next.
 
Gottlieb makes his reasoning quite clear for supporting the expansion of background checks. It's a moral issue for him, and in addition he believes that gun owners giving their rights away is the only way to protect them. Gun owners who oppose more background must get their minds right, their thinking just isn't sustainable.

[[So a lot of my people are going to oppose it because they don’t want any background check at all. Let’s be honest with you, philosophically, in a perfect world – I don’t want any background checks either. But I also don’t want criminals buying guns and killing people with them. And I can’t justify morally that a person walks into a gun show, buys a gun from somebody without giving his name, the guy can hardly speak English, and he walks out the door with that firearm with no check, nothing at all. It goes on every day at every gun show. I want to be honest with you – we can’t tolerate that. We’re going to lose all of our rights if we allow that to continue to go on. It’s not a sustainable position for us to take.]]

Watch the video. Those of us who do not support all this background check nonsense are just marching off the cliff and will lose the war according to Gobblieb.

SAVE YOUR RIGHTS. SURRENDER TO BACKGROUND CHECKS! :rolleyes:

Gun Advocates Embrace Gun Reform Compromise As A 'Godsend' | ThinkProgress
 
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Phil, I'm not saying you and Gottlieb are wrong, but I don't agree with it. It will be a hard pill to swallow if it comes to pass.

It just kills me to see our rights picked away little by little.

Why do the honest, law abiding always have to pay for the acts of criminals?
 
The so-called protections that are included in this bill already exist. The 1968 GCA & FOPA already outline and define the record keeping process for FFLs. I've never heard of a single case where a person who sold a gun was prosecuted when the end-recipient used it in a crime. Heavily regulated states will never cede their authority over firearms, so that provision is a non starter. The DHS has already stated in a report on gun violence that the only way a weapons ban will work is if it's part of a larger plan that includes registration AND confiscation. This bill is the first step in the anti's dream of an unarmed society. The problem is that no law will disarm criminals. And universal background checks would not have prevented Tucson, Aurora, or Sandy Hook. Does this law fix the mental health problem? No! Does this law address school safety? No! Will this law prevent another mass murder? No! With that, we should be united in opposition to this & any other measure that seeks to infringe on our rights.

Sent from my GS 3 using Tapatalk 2
 
Big Fred said:
Phil, I'm not saying you and Gottlieb are wrong, but I don't agree with it. It will be a hard pill to swallow if it comes to pass.

It just kills me to see our rights picked away little by little.

Why do the honest, law abiding always have to pay for the acts of criminals?
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Well... if you won't say Gottlieb is wrong I will! :D (notice the :rolleyes:) in my above post.
 
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TexasCajun said:
The so-called protections that are included in this bill already exist. The 1968 GCA & FOPA already outline and define the record keeping process for FFLs. I've never heard of a single case where a person who sold a gun was prosecuted when the end-recipient used it in a crime. Heavily regulated states will never cede their authority over firearms, so that provision is a non starter. The DHS has already stated in a report on gun violence that the only way a weapons ban will work is if it's part of a larger plan that includes registration AND confiscation. This bill is the first step in the anti's dream of an unarmed society. The problem is that no law will disarm criminals. And universal background checks would not have prevented Tucson, Aurora, or Sandy Hook. Does this law fix the mental health problem? No! Does this law address school safety? No! Will this law prevent another mass murder? No! With that, we should be united in opposition to this & any other measure that seeks to infringe on our rights.

Sent from my GS 3 using Tapatalk 2
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Right you are. We should never miss a chance to throw this fact in the face of the antis... The following mass murderers PASSED "background checks" and legally purchased firearms they used in their crimes. Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech; 32 killed, 17 wounded) Nidal Malik Hasan (Ft. Hood; 13 killed, 29 wounded), Jared Lee Loughner (Tucson / Gabby Giffords; 6 killed, 12 wounded) James Eagan Holmes (Aurora; 12 killed, 58 wounded). Even Adam Lanza's (Sandy Hook; 27 killed) mother, the source of his firearms, passed a back ground check.
 
2hawk said:
I just can't figure out why Gottlieb would be saying that this would be a win for gunowners if it isn't.
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For heaven's sake, you speak about Gottlieb like he is Jesus. Enough questions have been raised for anyone serious about defending the 2A to dump this "compromise". Dump Gottlieb. Move on.

Out
West
 
Not hardly a Messiah. But he has more real accomplishments to show in the courts than other, more prominent organizations. If you know his record it is an honest question to wonder what his endgame is. If you don't know his record then your perception might seem reasonable.
 
I'm most interested to see how much, if any, the Boston bombing diverts attention away from Manchin-Toomey. Ironically, a domestic terror attack may actually put gun control on the back burner for the immediate future.
 
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