I may have a live WWII round. UPDATE 12-20-12

[Kelly Green]

I need the expertise of the WWII ammo experts on the forum. My dad had an old trunk where he kept his WWII memorabilia. In going through the assorted items I discovered the round pictured below. I don't know what type of round it is, I've never seen one like this. I don't know if it's U.S., foreign or if it's even real. There is no headstamp on the case but it appears to have a live primer. It may be filled with propellant because when I shake it, it sounds like a salt shaker. I will treat it like any live round until I know different.

The OAL is 6.5" and the bullet diameter is 19.82mm in front of what I would call the turning ring. On the turning ring it measures 20mm.

Your expertise is appreciated and thank you in advance.

Kel

UPDATE 12-20-12

Today I took the round to a gentleman who was in Army ordnance. He placed it under a strong illuminated magnifying glass and I could see some very faint stampings on the projectile: 20M and the letters MY. Preceding MY are the letters UM which are all but invisible. Below this line of characters is a faint stamp M5. Conclusion: It's a dummy round with the letter D worn away. I felt like the other dummy in the room because I had looked closely at the round and never saw any markings.

I want to thank you all for replying and trying to help solve this mystery. Your responses are much appreciated.

I'm glad to know that my dad didn't bring back a live round. I've heard stores of some very unusual items, both legal and illegal, brought back from the war.

Incidentally, inside the trunk were boxes containing bundles of photos and hundreds of photographic negatives form WWII. I haven't had the chance to go through them all but what I've seen so far is interesting.

 

[bob1956]

It looks like a dummy pratice round to me I had one just like it for a 20 MM cannon.

 

[iouri]

20mm aircraft cannon ammo ?
EDIT: If that's a cannon ammo head supposed to be explosive. I wouldn't try to pull it out of case

 

[ohiojerry]

Didn't some Euro armies have 20mm anti-tank "rifles" back then? Could be for that.

 

[Bruce51]

I have one of those except that there is no primer.

The dummies have a white powder inside to help duplicate the weight of a loaded round.

I believe that you do have a live 20 mm round.

Check for markings on the collar around the bullet.

You will probably need a magnifier.

Bruce

I see that you already read the markings. They make an interesting paperweight.

 

[peyton]

For gosh sakes, don't mess with it!! Your in the situation of having something possibly live or inert, call the police or sheriff and explain the situation. Someone trained will come by and look at it.

Now the downside, you might possess a "Destructive Device" without the proper Tax Stamp. Still, I believe getting a professional to remove it is best.
Don't toss it in the lake, as a GI we found "lost ammo" that still explodes 70 years later.

 

[bushmaster1313]

For gosh sakes, don't mess with it!! Your in the situation of having something possibly live or inert, call the police or sheriff and explain the situation. Someone trained will come by and look at it.

Now the downside, you might possess a "Destructive Device" without the proper Tax Stamp. Still, I believe getting a professional to remove it is best.
Don't toss it in the lake, as a GI we found "lost ammo" that still explodes 70 years later.

Based on the above I think Peyton is a smart person
(I addition to being a person who has earned my respect merely by being a veteran.)

 

[2152hq]

BATF NFA Handbook
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

scroll down to 2.1.8
Destructive Device
Immediately below it in 2.1.8.1 it lays out what is and what is not a D/D under the NFA.

Some 20mm ammo projectiles carry an explosive or incendiary charge.
If more than 1/4oz charge,,the round(s) are an NFA Dangerous Device.

Positive ID is paramount and w/o markings, only someone w/ the right reference and knowledge would I trust to do that.
Everything else is a guess.

As Peyton says,,the Sheriffs Dept's and PD's deal with this type of thing quite often and have personel trained for it.
Stuff like this is nothing to play around with IMHO.

 

[Cyrano]

Looks like a dummy round for the 20mm Vulcan 'gatling gun' type cannon. It's all one piece: 'projectile' and cartridge turned out of one piece of metal. They were quite common since the Vulcan had a complex feed mechanism, and when unloaded required dummy rounds in the feedway. An HE projectile would be OD color, with yellow lettering indicating the lot number, fuze, and other information.

 

[peyton]

I have the challenge of no pictures to look at to help identify it.

 

[Damocles]

Looks like a dummy round for the 20mm Vulcan 'gatling gun' type cannon. It's all one piece: 'projectile' and cartridge turned out of one piece of metal. They were quite common since the Vulcan had a complex feed mechanism, and when unloaded required dummy rounds in the feedway. An HE projectile would be OD color, with yellow lettering indicating the lot number, fuze, and other information.

Sure looks like a 20mm dummy. That was my original MOS. Ahh, nothing like getting 1/2 way through uploading a 1000 round belt and having the thing jam. When this happened, and it happened often, you'd have to turn the wheel with a crank by hand, and manually take the rounds out of the chute, and relink them. No easy task. When the Army took my Vulcan away and gave me a Bradley, it was like trading a Pinto for a Lincoln!

 

[Number1gun]

Posiable issue I see is that that the primer is not dented. While it most likely is not live. I would use an abundance of caution.

 

[OLDFED]

Call the nearest US ARMY post and ask to speak to the EOD and send them the photo.

 

[Sprefix]

Now me, I'd buy a gun that it would chamber in and try it out.......but that's just me........... Get ahold of Dillon and ask them. They play with some nice stuff and can prolly ID it on sight, via e-mail.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but weren't some types of Japanese WW II rounds unmarked? I think I read that applied to 8mm Nambu pistol ammo.

I've never seen any original Jap ammo, just Norma commercial loads in 6.5mm.

Just thinking that this came out of a WW II vet's locker...

I agee that sending a photo to an EOD guy or calling the local cops sounds best. Suspect that Cyrano is prob. right, though.

If that thing does go to a Vulcan, what would be the bullet weight and velocity? (For a live round.) Looks like a good load for the mosquitoes around here in summer.

 

[desi2358]

Having collected a few over the years I would have to say that is a dummy round. Live rounds normally have colored tips and/or bands to indicate the load (tracer, APtracer, incendiary, etc.) and usually have nice clear headstamps. Most 20mm is on brass cases as well. Dummy rounds, most often used for training or maintanance, are usually painted a color very different from live rounds to prevent confusing the two. That one looks like a 20mm dummy I used to have.

 

[Gunslinger808]

 

[gaucho1]

When I study your picture I see brass colors coming through what
looks like a coat of paint.

I would take some sandpaper and rub some edges and see if that is the case.

If it is in fact painted, assume live rnd. and proceed accordingly.

Why risk it?

Good luck and please tell us the outcome.

 

[Texasflyboy]

Based on the measurements and the rim, lack of belted base, and deep crimping under the projectile base it appears to be a 20x110mm US Navy round for the Hispano Suiza 20mm Cannon or similar 20mm weapons of the 1940's, 1950's era.

Examples here:

Cartridge of the Month

An introduction to collecting 20 mm cannon cartridges The 20 mm automatic cannon first saw service during World War 1 but achieved its

AIRCRAFT

The most efficient way to identify 20mm rounds is:

-overall length
-projectile driving band dimensions
-Belted base or not?
-Rebated rim or not?
-Crimped neck or not?
-Style of shoulder (tapered, severe, gentle)
-Style of projectile crimp

You should treat the round as a live 20mm HE round unless proven otherwise by a person qualified as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) or Unexploded Ordnance Specialist (UXO). Your local law enforcement agency will know how to contact the U.S. Navy EOD school at Indian Head Naval Surface Warfare Center for identification and disposal.

 

[Texas Star]

I'd still lke to know the ballistics of the Vulcan and the Oerlikon AA 20 MMs. I'm guessing the longer barrels of the latter add quite a bit of velocity.