I really question the whole M&P line...

[jonh1373]

First off, I was issued and started carrying a S&W revolver in 1972. Over the years I worked my way through many S&W revolvers to the first several generations of S&W semi autos and loved each and every one. I still have many in the safe. Fast forward to the late 90's and I started carrying a Glock. In all reality there are bad guns from every manufacturer but Glock failures are few and far between. If you want to lighten up the trigger it is a $3.50 connector that Grandma could install. Last year I bought two Pro series M&Ps thinking I was missing my old S&W pistols. Although no major failures I dislike both guns. Maybe I was just too used to the Glock to switch to the M&P. I do own several current production S&W revolvers with 100% satisfaction. I started following this forum on the M&P and have seen numerous complaints and failures mentioned. Per centage wise more than on any Glock or XD forum. Lots of posts about all these fancy pricy after market triggers which puts the cost of an M&P out of line with other striker fired guns. As I read all of the posts it makes me wonder what happened to the 100% reliable, reasonably priced S&W of days gone by? Was S&W trying to play catch up with Gaston Glock in the striker fired guns? What happened to my S&W of days gone by?

 

[rwsmith]

IMHO

IMHO S&W has always been ahead in revolvers, but have very stiff competition in the semi auto department since the plastic guns came about. I think S&Ws philosophy and that of Glocks are a little different that way. You want a simple, reliable design get a Glock. If you like a little more refinement, get an S&W.

I don't think that Glock would have sold so many guns to PDs if they weren't very good, regardless of price and marketing strategies.

That said, I'm an S&W man.

 

[Doug M.]

Every manufacturer has some pretty serious issues. Even worse, even though they know about them, none of the manufacturer are even adequately addressing them. Anyone who thinks this is limited to gun makers is not paying attention. I've seen the same or worse in cars, OTR trucks, computers, and clothing.

I do not go to any other manufacturer specific forum as a rule, although I still belong to the Sig Forum run by our old Para. That said, on at least one forum populated mostly by military and LE folks, the reports of serious problems with (at least some models of) Glocks and their horrible attitude toward their purchasers are pretty significant. (And on another, now gone, there was a discussion 6 years ago about the serious problems with G22/G23 models, especially with lights mounted, but even without. These issues are now pretty much accepted as gospel, although there are indications that with enough work, a Gen4 22/23 will work, and the Gen4 17/19s are broken as a result.) When LEOs are getting threatened with lawsuits if they discuss the problems they have had with Glocks on duty and in testing for consideration of issue/authorization (pretty well known) to the extent that Glock reps were trespassed from at least one agency's academy, that's a problem.

S&W is not perfect. I think S&W is trying to make too many M&Ps (and other models) to deal with demand, and cannot keep up, so QC and inspections are not getting the attention they should. There are apparently serious problems with barrels and slides being really out of spec on at least one model. I would not have a SIG on a bet, given their problems with QC over the last 8 or so years (all well known, just as with S&W and Glock). (Not to mention, I would not willingly carry a DA/SA pistol - they serve no purpose in any serious use. Period. Issuing or allowing them is dereliction per se and should result in severe discipline percussive maintenance on any command officer who can be shown to be involved.)

The XD is not a candidate for serious (any) consideration for a duty pistol due to their problems (I no longer even follow those reports) and the fact that unless things have changed, they have to go back to the mother ship for any real service, which is never going to fly.

In .40, I see only one real choice, and that is the M&P. In .45, the G21, M&P, or HK45. In 9? HK P30 seems to be the only pistol running out of the box every time. If one looks at the hard/serious use folks who have written up their experiences, guys who shoot 1000+ rounds a week in training/have prevailed in gunfights/teach others for those settings - these are the trends and results to be seen.

 

[GKC]

I think the quality of days past is long gone, and problems are magnified by the rush to produce product to meet demand. I don't think ANY gun maker is immune to problems, with of course some having more problems than others, but what makes the difference to me is how the maker addresses the problem. Ruger, for example, has excellent customer service and has been quick to recall guns once a problem has been identified. S&W has done the same, perhaps not quite as quickly as has done Ruger, but still they have stepped up to address issues by and large. Glock, on the other hand, has yet to admit there is an issue with the late Gen3 and Gen4 pistols, and just keeps trying various combinations of parts.

Some manufacturers seem to think that their customers should buy their products, and then never bother them if there is a problem...like SIG, H&K, and Beretta. I've long posted negative comments on Taurus, based on past experience, but I think they are really trying...they aren't there yet on QC or CS, but at least they are trying.

I often read comments about "break in periods" needed before we can expect reliability. Personally, I don't agree with that. If you bought a new car, and it stalled, ran rough, wouldn't shift gears, backfired, or had other malfunctions, would you drive it for 500 miles before contacting the dealer?

A gun is a heck of a lot less complicated than a car, and while I know there are some things that are not in the maker's control (like if you use crappy ammo, or limp-wrist it) the gun itself should work correctly out of the box.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Geez, how am I going to break it to my four M&P's that they are unreliable and overpriced after they've been so loyal to me for all those thousands of rounds?
They are going to take this hard!

 

[S&W Rover]

Opinions are fine and when they are informed they are worthwhile reading.

We lack real data for some of these decisions, because no one really tests pistols like they should. We know the P226 and Beretta 92 passed the Army's tests back in the 80's, but some people even argue that it wasn't a totally fair test.

Gun writers? they could do some testing, but mostly they seem to like everything they see. A few send messages by what they won't test...

Seems to me that reliability should be the number one factor -- trigger feel is more subjective AND less important, and should be lower on the list, since we can learn to shoot with various trigger set ups, given enough time to practice.

I don't agree with all in this thread but am content to let opinions speak for themselves. The only statement in the thread so far I want to challenge is: "I would not willingly carry a DA/SA pistol - they serve no purpose in any serious use" and that's mostly because I recently invested in a P239 and just bought a SP2022. So I am into DA/SA, and don't want my biases challenged!

 

[GKC]

The only statement in the thread so far I want to challenge is: "I would not willingly carry a DA/SA pistol - they serve no purpose in any serious use" and that's mostly because I recently invested in a P239 and just bought a SP2022. So I am into DA/SA, and don't want my biases challenged!

I forgot to mention that in my post above, but I agree with you. I like DA/SA actions with a decocker. In most cases, or at least in my experience, the DA trigger isn't as good as the SA trigger, but with lots of practice it's certainly manageable and great for urgent situations.

 

[Doug M.]

I am looking at the DA/SA from the LE service perspective, and to a lesser extent, personal defense perspective. That fetish came from command officers who thought it made the guns "safer" somehow, because it was harder to fire a shot. Of course, the right answer is rule 3 - keep your finger off the trigger until prepared to shoot. In fact, the guns are less safe for the purpose that matters because it takes a lot more work to shoot one accurately on the first shot, and then there is the transition. The ignorance of the decision makers created MORE potential problems and liability as they tried to solve a problem that did not exist. Heck, from a mechanical perspective, the "safest" pistol is probably the 1911.

I had a 239 (had to sell it during a cash flow problem), but it was a DAK. The one I got was the second on my order; the first was so messed up that the dealer rejected it! I was issued both a 1076 and a 4566 at different times. Very accurate mechanically, but prone to breakage. Not a bad target gun, at least in terms of the accuracy, but completely unsuitable as duty weapons.

 

[petepeterson]

I personally feel that a TDA set-up is the perfect civilian defense system. It gives me the comfort of knowing that i absolutely wanted that 1st one to fly.

 

[Jasonm43]

H&k lem. Best carry trigger imho.

 

[BobsSmith]

Smith and Wesson makes great products, perfect nope! Every company makes lemons from time to time.

That being said, both my MP 45 and MP 9 are great, accurate and dependable. BTW, I left everything stock!

Best

Bob

 

[Venenoindy]

First off, I was issued and started carrying a S&W revolver in 1972. Over the years I worked my way through many S&W revolvers to the first several generations of S&W semi autos and loved each and every one. I still have many in the safe. Fast forward to the late 90's and I started carrying a Glock. In all reality there are bad guns from every manufacturer but Glock failures are few and far between. If you want to lighten up the trigger it is a $3.50 connector that Grandma could install. Last year I bought two Pro series M&Ps thinking I was missing my old S&W pistols. Although no major failures I dislike both guns. Maybe I was just too used to the Glock to switch to the M&P. I do own several current production S&W revolvers with 100% satisfaction. I started following this forum on the M&P and have seen numerous complaints and failures mentioned. Per centage wise more than on any Glock or XD forum. Lots of posts about all these fancy pricy after market triggers which puts the cost of an M&P out of line with other striker fired guns. As I read all of the posts it makes me wonder what happened to the 100% reliable, reasonably priced S&W of days gone by? Was S&W trying to play catch up with Gaston Glock in the striker fired guns? What happened to my S&W of days gone by?

Let me guess you got all this credible data from the forums on the Internet so it most be true, I can only speak from experience and i have quite a bit with Glock (but I'm no expert). I had my fair share of issues with them from a broken ejector to consistently having light primer strikes, bad barrel, and this is up and down their line up not just one model. But my opinion has not change its still a great firearm (but still a machine) and machines brake, people need to quit reading on the net and get real trigger time. The M&P's I had so far had been great but I do not expect them to be perfect as all firearms need preventive maintenance and regular cleaning, boils down to personal preference and taking care of your gear as there is not a perfect firearm that is why I always carry at least two and even sometimes three.

 

[CC83]

I have a Beretta 92f I bought earlier this year. It was a police trade in and well worn. I shoot Tulammo (not one malfunction yet). I don't have any problem hitting a target at 10 yards with the first double action shot. Do people really have a problem hitting a target with a double action trigger? How far away is the targets that they can't hit?

 

[Maximumbob54]

The trigger reset issue always has me puzzled. Unless I'm trying to set a new speed record I cannot fathom why I care. The gun goes bang, I release the trigger, and then I pull it again. Bang. The reset is shorter than most and during live fire there's now way I could hear it reset anyways. Unless I was shooting very slowly I'm not sure I could feel a reset. My 92FS has a feel for the reset and I never even noticed it until someone pointed it out to me. I feel most of the crying is over nothing.

 

[Venenoindy]

I could not agree more with you.

 

[Edmo]

Guys, please remember regardless how well one brand performs or is accepted, it has no affect or bearing on another brand.

Each brand of gun stands on it's own merit. GLOCKs can be either good or bad and it doesn't change how well a S&W pistol performs.

I post this because it seems some would rather talk down other brands such as GLOCK instead of rejoicing in how well their brand works. The glass half empty or half full thing.

Just an observation...

Edmo

 

[jonh1373]

I think the sa/da or dka or striker trigger issue is a personal preference and training issue. Any of them can be learned. The problem I have and others may also is switching from one to the other and having the muscle memory to immediately transition. Give me a few minutes and I am back on the money. I also think those talking about feeling the trigger reset, that it is probably only an issue for competition shooters. In an awe sh*t situation you will not feel or even think about a trigger reset, only that your weapon keeps going bang until you want it to stop. As I have said in other posts, it is all about training and range time. Pick a weapon system that works for you, whether it is a Smith, Glock, Sig or whatever, train, practice and be safe.

 

[bob98366]

Well, my M&P 40 Pro5" and M&P Shield 9 are both completely stock, have had zero issues, eat everything tried and the 40Pro easily does 3" groups at 7 yds in/around the bullseye rapid fire. I must be doing something wrong to not have issues, I guess...

 

[shawn mccarver]

Some points to consider:

Internet forums get far more reports of the small number of failures than of the overwhelming majority of properly functioning guns. The Glock Talk Forum has as many or more whiners, bashers and people with generally bad attitudes as this forum.

Glock makes a fine service pistol, capable of better accuracy than what its sights seem to allow, and it is built tank tough and seems to last forever.

S&W's M&P is a fine service pistol, capable of better accuracy than what its sights seem to allow, and it is built tank tough and seems to last forever.

There are just as many, if not more, "not needed" accessories made for the Glock and all sorts of people buy them, thereby adding to the price. Thus, the M&P is not alone in that department.

As to where is the old S&W, my response is that they are here, they offer excellent choices and the M&P line, unlike the earlier SIGMA, is a real contender for any job that can be expected of a premier LE service pistol or weapon for self-defense.

 

[red dragon]

I think S&W is doing a great job. They continue to improve past designs while still introducing new ones. The m&p sport,sdve pistols and 642 revolvers are all great examples of them providing the customer with a quality product at a affordable price.They came out with a improved bg380 and a bunch of new revolvers this year. The shield,need i say more. Why come on here and bash S&W when your only problem is personal preference? If glock is your almighty pistol then good for you, your just wasting your time trying to convince people in the S&W forum that the M&P is a inferior pistol. Between my m&p 9 and shield 9 i have over 5000rds with zero malfunctions. That seems pretty reliable to me. My m&p rifles are just as reliable.