What are you joking I owned Glocks and the Gen 4`s had problems for a very long time and the people that never went to the Glock Forums and read about the problems and haven`t shot their guns will some day take them out of the box and have problems...So WHO ARE YOU KIDDING Glock doesn`t have problems
I really question the whole M&P line...
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What are you joking I owned Glocks and the Gen 4`s had problems for a very long time and the people that never went to the Glock Forums and read about the problems and haven`t shot their guns will some day take them out of the box and have problems...So WHO ARE YOU KIDDING Glock doesn`t have problems
Forums are not statistically a representation of the gun community.
We don't need to look any further than this forum to validate my assertion.
I recall a while back the administrator reported over 100,000 members. If that number is correct does that represent a majority of people who own a Smith and Wesson?
We can make the total enrolled look even more insignificant if we removed inactive accounts.
When you log on for example the M&P forum even in prime time (evenings) the number logged in rarely exceeds 300 to 400 which is nothing for a forum that potentially has a reach of the entire free world.
Simply put gun forums are a very small representation of the 1 in 3 Americans who own guns.
(100 million gun owners in America / 100,000 S&W forum members (active & inactive) =1/10th of one percent)
1/10th of one percent for football fans would be 100 people in a packed stadium of 100,000 fans.
Russ
We don't need to look any further than this forum to validate my assertion.
I recall a while back the administrator reported over 100,000 members. If that number is correct does that represent a majority of people who own a Smith and Wesson?
We can make the total enrolled look even more insignificant if we removed inactive accounts.
When you log on for example the M&P forum even in prime time (evenings) the number logged in rarely exceeds 300 to 400 which is nothing for a forum that potentially has a reach of the entire free world.
Simply put gun forums are a very small representation of the 1 in 3 Americans who own guns.
(100 million gun owners in America / 100,000 S&W forum members (active & inactive) =1/10th of one percent)
1/10th of one percent for football fans would be 100 people in a packed stadium of 100,000 fans.
Russ
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UncaGrunny
US Veteran
On the other hand, some people might consider a design that forces you to pull the trigger for any purpose other than firing an intentional shot to be both dangerous and stupid.
Opinions; they differ.
Vinney47
Member
I think the increase in issues with firearms (from any manufacturer) is 2 fold
1: QC is slipping from the demand
2: Tons of new shooters, and old shooters new to semi-auto hand guns
Number 2 brings many issues. New shooters (or new to semi-autos) who don't know how to maintain, care for, or properly shoot their firearms inherently bring problems that aren't the guns, or manufacturers fault, but get blasted all over the internet grossly skewing reliability and satisfaction perceptions.
1: QC is slipping from the demand
2: Tons of new shooters, and old shooters new to semi-auto hand guns
Number 2 brings many issues. New shooters (or new to semi-autos) who don't know how to maintain, care for, or properly shoot their firearms inherently bring problems that aren't the guns, or manufacturers fault, but get blasted all over the internet grossly skewing reliability and satisfaction perceptions.
bdickers said .......
Sorry, but it sounds like you've never worked for a major defense contractor...shamefully, in this day and age low bottom lines win contracts not superlative engineering.
Sorry, but it sounds like you've never worked for a major defense contractor...shamefully, in this day and age low bottom lines win contracts not superlative engineering.
I guess you could look at it that way...but I'd say that anyone who undertakes to work on a gun without determining that it is unloaded (not just once, but three times) is the one who is dangerous and stupid.
I see lots of comments criticizing the necessity to pull the trigger to field strip certain guns...but almost all here dry fire their guns, and no one seems to think that is inherently dangerous. In both cases, you are pulling the trigger and are not expecting/wanting the gun to fire...and in both cases, it is of paramount importance to insure that the gun is unloaded first.
What's the difference?
UncaGrunny
US Veteran
Well, like I said; opinions differ.
I could make a case that when dry firing you are at somewhat less intrinsic risk of blowing your own parts off than when disassembling, since one is a simulated firing exercise that (one would hope) would be treated with the necessary care regarding 'pointed in a safe direction', and the other is a step in a process that does not intend to simulate live fire...
But it's really a distinction without a difference.
Bottom line is, if people always did 'what they are supposed to do & know they should do,' pistols wouldn't need anything but the most rudimentary safeties.
But to wax philosophical, if people always did what they should, nobody'd need firearms for self-protection.
People make mistakes.
From an engineering standpoint:
Bad design requires actions that can lead to tragedies.
Good design helps prevent mistakes from becoming tragedies.
Really good design does this without interfering with desired operation of the device.
It's virtually impossible to have a field-stripping ND while using the M&P's disconnect lever as designed, even if the operator is inexperienced - you can't get to it without dropping the mag and opening the slide, and you don't have to pull the trigger at any step. It is nearly fail-safe as it forces clearing the weapon in order to proceed.
It's disturbingly easy for even an experienced gun handler to have an ND when field stripping a Glock, because there is that unavoidable step of pulling the trigger on a pistol with the slide closed. A moment's inattention or distraction while clearing is all that's required for "Bang."
Nobody expects to make a mistake - - that's why they're called 'mistakes.'
Just my opinion, of course.
^^+^^ Precisely. MHO? Too much time on gun forums. I'd wager most of the guys on line who complain about M&P triggers never fired one. The only issues I've had with my M&P's was with bad ammo. The OP is obviously a Glock fan. Whatever, they're fine guns. But don't think they're infallible. You Tube's full of Glock failures.
Jagrmaister
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Got no issue with my m&p line of handguns. In fact, just added a 40c to complete the FS, SHIELD, AND 22 lineup. They just work for me.
Since you can pull the trigger on an M&P to release the slide, rather than open the slide and push down the sear disconnect lever, I'd say that is a bad design as well...from a safety standpoint.
Of course, if we engineered anything...gun, car, microwave, whatever...to the point that no one could ever make a mistake or misuse it, it wouldn't be functional. You can even jab a pencil in your eye, and how much more simple and safe can you make a pencil?
UncaGrunny
US Veteran
I guess the difference between " one can choose to" and "one is required to" doesn't strike you as significant from a design standpoint.
Weren't you just arguing a couple posts ago that the 'dangerous and stupid' label should fall on the person choosing to do something unsafe?
Why, yes... yes, you were.
It's a well-known engineering truism that you cannot make anything completely idiot-proof, as nature is constantly developing more creative idiots.
Idiot-resistant is the best that can be hoped for in any design - - be it for a firearm... or a forum!
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bronconagurski
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I can look down the barrel of a loaded gun, but I refrain. But because I can, I guess that's a flaw in design from a safety standpoint. My military training taught me a lot of things, the two foremost being, "Locks were made to keep honest people honest", and "never take anything for granted, check and double check."
If I remember correctly the quote is:
"Those who devise fool-proof systems fail to take into account the ingenuity of fools"
UncaGrunny
US Veteran
If I remember correctly the quote is:
"Those who devise fool-proof systems fail to take into account the ingenuity of fools"
There are a bunch of formulations of it; another is "If you ever did make something truly idiot-proof, only idiots would put up with it."
All restatements of O'Toole's Commentary in one way or another.
Trigger reset... most people would be better served dwelling on getting their front sight alignment down pat than worrying about where the trigger resets in the return travel.
You want to compare the M&P to something, go find one of the original Sigma SW40F/SW9F's... holy sheep dip. I bought a SW40F when they first came out... the experience soured me so badly that it's taken this long for me to jump onto the M&P bandwagon with an M&P45.
I also have to question whether or not "herd mentality" is involved when it comes to the APEX upgrades, as well as the urge for instant gratification.
An M&P newbie (guilty) looking at the M&P forum looking for info to become more familiar with what they bought, you can easily get the impression (and get caught up in the enthusiasm being expressed) that unless they immediately make the upgrades, they are left with something vastly inferior out of the box.
And I readily admit that I got caught up in the APEX exuberance too by mentioning in my post about finally getting an M&P, that I wanted to have the apex parts here ready to install when I picked up the gun after the CA 10 day waiting period expires.
But after being reminded to do so by a poster to my thread... I'm stepping back, taking a deep breath and will wait until I put in a bunch of range time to decide on my own what mods I may or may not perform.
When I was at my LGS looking at the M&P, the counter guy broke into his sales pitch by almost immediately launching into an APEX this and APEX that... it sounded like he worked for APEX and not in an LGS trying to sell an M&P, as highlighting/covering it's features became secondary. Where did all of that come from... too much "birds of a feather time" on a forum?
People like Ed Brown, Bill Wilson, Jim Clark Sr., Richard Heinie... and the list goes on and on, have made a very good living by improving upon the Colt 1911 platform by tuning them and selling custom performance parts.
But you don't hear people making the same kind of comparisons/complaints about the "crappy factory original Colt". It was readily accepted that in it's native form it was a SERVICE pistol... don't expect much else from it, and if you do, it is acknowledged as a great platform for customizing/perfecting.
So why are the M&P's not being given the same consideration and not picked apart so much?
You want to compare the M&P to something, go find one of the original Sigma SW40F/SW9F's... holy sheep dip. I bought a SW40F when they first came out... the experience soured me so badly that it's taken this long for me to jump onto the M&P bandwagon with an M&P45.
I also have to question whether or not "herd mentality" is involved when it comes to the APEX upgrades, as well as the urge for instant gratification.
An M&P newbie (guilty) looking at the M&P forum looking for info to become more familiar with what they bought, you can easily get the impression (and get caught up in the enthusiasm being expressed) that unless they immediately make the upgrades, they are left with something vastly inferior out of the box.
And I readily admit that I got caught up in the APEX exuberance too by mentioning in my post about finally getting an M&P, that I wanted to have the apex parts here ready to install when I picked up the gun after the CA 10 day waiting period expires.
But after being reminded to do so by a poster to my thread... I'm stepping back, taking a deep breath and will wait until I put in a bunch of range time to decide on my own what mods I may or may not perform.
When I was at my LGS looking at the M&P, the counter guy broke into his sales pitch by almost immediately launching into an APEX this and APEX that... it sounded like he worked for APEX and not in an LGS trying to sell an M&P, as highlighting/covering it's features became secondary. Where did all of that come from... too much "birds of a feather time" on a forum?
People like Ed Brown, Bill Wilson, Jim Clark Sr., Richard Heinie... and the list goes on and on, have made a very good living by improving upon the Colt 1911 platform by tuning them and selling custom performance parts.
But you don't hear people making the same kind of comparisons/complaints about the "crappy factory original Colt". It was readily accepted that in it's native form it was a SERVICE pistol... don't expect much else from it, and if you do, it is acknowledged as a great platform for customizing/perfecting.
So why are the M&P's not being given the same consideration and not picked apart so much?
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WOW, did this topic get off base. I only started this topic to comment on the question that I was curious if S&W QC had slipped on the new M&P line compared to the old standard of superior quality of the older S&W wheel guns. There was no M&P bashing intended or implied, I simply stated that I was going back to Glock as I was more familiar and used to the gun.
Some interesting comments though I must say. Maybe someone should start a new topic to get on to another issue.
Some interesting comments though I must say. Maybe someone should start a new topic to get on to another issue.
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Never been a fan of the "KISS" principle, matter of fact I always thought it was a slap in the face of LEOs whose administrators made them carry DAO weapons due too "safety concerns". All the more pointing to the fact that said administrator might actually be dumber than a box of rocks.
Happily I grew up shooting revolvers, then 1911s, then TDA semi autos. No body ever told me I couldn't hit beyond X amount of distance with a snubby, or a TDA semi-auto, and have taken both out to 100 yards.
Now enter the poly pistols, simple to build, simple too shoot, simple to maintain, and yet they have problems. Which I believe can be laid at the recent buying crazes feet!
Thing is when you buy a piece, it's YOU doin the buyin, not us! Sure you can ask around, here or elsewhere, and while we're more than happy to answer questions, we with the one buyin it!
Go to your favorite shop or range, rent what your lookin at, try it out, if you like it buy it, then PRACTICE till you know it second nature!
Pointing fingers at this or that brand as bein faulty or no good is fine, but it's an opinion and nothin more, which is what ya get here.
So stop worryin about what somebody said, and find out for yourself!
Dale
Happily I grew up shooting revolvers, then 1911s, then TDA semi autos. No body ever told me I couldn't hit beyond X amount of distance with a snubby, or a TDA semi-auto, and have taken both out to 100 yards.
Now enter the poly pistols, simple to build, simple too shoot, simple to maintain, and yet they have problems. Which I believe can be laid at the recent buying crazes feet!
Thing is when you buy a piece, it's YOU doin the buyin, not us! Sure you can ask around, here or elsewhere, and while we're more than happy to answer questions, we with the one buyin it!
Go to your favorite shop or range, rent what your lookin at, try it out, if you like it buy it, then PRACTICE till you know it second nature!
Pointing fingers at this or that brand as bein faulty or no good is fine, but it's an opinion and nothin more, which is what ya get here.
So stop worryin about what somebody said, and find out for yourself!
Dale
Just to quantify this a bit, which eastern block pistols are you referring to? I have a Polish tok, Romanian tok, 2 cz82s, and a cz 52. I don't have a mak. Umm I'm not saying that the M&P that I just bought is worse or better than any of those. Just that none are real bad. Perhaps those pistols you are thinking of are better than 50 years old, rusted, and very abused. Prolly full of sand too?
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