I think I'm right

I can't see what "both sides of the argument here. I just don't know which side I agree with more."
There's only one and it's that Jay is not a guy I would hang with let alone drink with unless you enjoy bar fights.
 
^^ additionally, if I'm not mistaken, a Louisiana permit is not valid if the permit holder has a blood alcohol content greater than 0.04.

Legal or not, don't drink and carry.
 
I'm not the OP , but as a wild guess , the "other side" would be a generalized intent of " guns are legal , common , and nothing to be ashamed of ".

While this general concept might be acomplished ( with an acceptable level of increased risk ) at certain times , preferably with a planned outing or event, a barroom by one's self is definatly NOT such an occasion.
 
Obviously the situation troubled you (you brought it up for discussion), and it should. I've been doing criminal law (first as a prosecutor, then defense) for a couple decades. I can't tell you how many stupid murder cases I've worked on that started out substantially the same way as this one.

It's your life - but you ought to give some serious consideration about doing whatever it takes to avoid such situations. If you were my little brother, I'd admonish you that Step One would be not closing down bars while under arms, let alone moving on to another with a crew of drunks (this is where the charging ADA starts to look at adding conspiracy charges and bumping the killing up to Murder One) . . . .

I'm glad for your sake to hear nothing bad came of this instance, but nothing good happens after nine p.m., amigo. You're right to be concerned - be careful not to allow yourself to be placed in such a situation again.
 
Thanking your lucky stars or perhaps you should thank your guardian angel for working overtime to save your backside from what could have been a very tragic situation.

I am not wanting to pile on, I do want to encourage you to realize you dodged a major bullet and hope you have learned a powerful lesson.

I am very grateful this situation resolved the way it did. I am grateful no one was hurt.
 
There is so much 'wrong' in your account of the evening's festivities I know not where to start. But let's start with this: Your new pal is '...an alcoholic (now drinking in your presence) living on a va check each month.' And he has a criminal past, apparently. Yet, in your opinion, '...he's a cool guy.' :eek: You, young man, are a poor judge of character even if those were the only issues in your story.

Said 'cool guy' wants to use you gun...the one you told him about...after you closed one bar and adjourned to another. This is remarkable. For the record, I do enjoy a beverage and likely have been in more beerrooms than most folks. That said, I cannot tell you the last one I was in one at closing time...and then went to another. Wow!

You should never have told your drunk pal that you had a gun. Which begs the question: Why did you? :confused:

And you should have left immediately when asked for the loan of your gun. IMMEDIATELY.

Based on what you have told us, I fear you have issues that need resolution. Please, for your benefit, consider my thoughts and those of others who have posted. You somehow made it through that evening without getting in big trouble though you essentially begged for trouble.

Do learn from your mistakes; you can, I hope.

Be safe.

Note:

Considered 'apologizing' for my rather severe words/tone. But will not.

So I was with my girlfriend at the bar. I met her friend, Jay. Jay was in the army from 1993-98. We have things in common, as I was in the army from 2008-12. In a random conversation, I mentioned I conceal and carry, which Jay replied he can't because he got in trouble with the law here and there. I understand, as I've also been in trouble, but never once have I been convicted guilty nor have I pled guilty, so my record is clean. He asked about people seeing my gun and I ran him through general behavior. When you see a man you see blue jeans, red shirt, white guy, red beard, and that's it. When you look at him you see from the chest up. Nobody ever sees the slightly odd point in my shirt where I appendix carry a full size ruger sr9. Nobody seems to notice.

The bar closes and we move to another bar. This one has a few guys and a rather attractive girl. Our group was 4 total, but Jay is the only important character in my story. Jay strikes me as a disabled veteran age 39 who is now an alcoholic living on a va check each month. In general he's a cool guy. I'm a 25 year old veteran who is in no way disabled. And all I know about the girl at bar #2 is she's rather attractive from the front and back, wearing tight fitting clothing, and I enjoyed viewing her.

Jay, who has by now had several drinks, approached me and asked if he could "borrow my piece." His words, not mine. He made some sort of explanation that I ignored about the girl and some guy that sounded to me like a bar fight was brewing. If I'm alive, the answer is no. I tuned back in and gathered Jay wanted to "make a statement." I let Jay know that pulling a gun is a death threat, and no matter what the outcome is the cops will be here soon if you pull a gun. I figure Jay has 3 options. Put $30 on the bar and leave now, avoid the group and don't look at the girl or the boyfriend all night, or get into the group and end up in a bar fight.

Jay then asked if I could "make a statement" with my gun. I told him no, since using a gun to bully people is still a death threat which still leads to cops when there's a variety of other options and its not my fight. I told Jay if he goes over there with my gun, He gets arrested and my gun is gone. If I make the statement I get arrested and my gun is gone. Either option can be avoided by standing over here or leaving.

Jay then attempted to tell me the whole story saying it's the girl talking smack and such And pushing people around... I asked him is pulling a gun the answer to someone thinking they're cool? He didn't think so. Off topic, thank God for background checks. At this point I'm glad Jay can't conceal and carry.

About 10 minutes later I found my excuse to leave and I was gone.

Going back over the situation, I know I'm right in not loaning out my gun. And I know I'm right in not bullying someone with my gun. I'm pretty sure I'm right in leaving and removing the gun on my belt from whatever situation was about to happen. And I really don't care what this rather attractive girl was saying, since I don't even know her name nor was I interested in learning it. Was I wrong to discuss concealing and carrying and letting someone know I carry? To me discussing guns is like discussing the weather. They're items legally purchased. Its a sport played by a bunch of people. Its an interest of many. But personal defense is like personal hygiene. Everyone does it, and some people's routine stinks, but nobody talks about it. Its personal, not public. Not really secret, but not a general topic of conversation.

I see both sides of the argument here. I just don't know which side I agree with more.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 
Obviously the situation troubled you (you brought it up for discussion), and it should. I've been doing criminal law (first as a prosecutor, then defense) for a couple decades. I can't tell you how many stupid murder cases I've worked on that started out substantially the same way as this one.

It's your life - but you ought to give some serious consideration about doing whatever it takes to avoid such situations. If you were my little brother, I'd admonish you that Step One would be not closing down bars while under arms, let alone moving on to another with a crew of drunks (this is where the charging ADA starts to look at adding conspiracy charges and bumping the killing up to Murder One) . . . .

I'm glad for your sake to hear nothing bad came of this instance, but nothing good happens after nine p.m., amigo. You're right to be concerned - be careful not to allow yourself to be placed in such a situation again.

Thank you for bringing the voice of reason to this discussion, if anything is more volatile than alcohol and gun powder it would be alcohol + gunpowder + testosterone :eek:

Jim in Iowa
 
Aw, shucks - thanks, Jim. Honestly, we've all been in bad situations - the key is to evaluate what the problem was and to avoid that sort of thing in the future. Kudos to the OP for being reflective about the whole thing.
 
Anyone who carries a gun and takes it into a bar is a fool. A dangerous fool. If you are too afraid to go out drinking without a gun, stay home. You will either wind up in jail or in the cemetery. And I don't care what you think the law in your state is. You sound like a decent person. Now get smart.
Have a nice day.
 
Even if it is legal....never consume ANY alcohol if you are carrying a gun.

I didn't. I figure if you don't mix cars and heavy machinery with alcohol because it's dangerous then you shouldn't mix guns and alcohol.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 
I'm not the OP , but as a wild guess , the "other side" would be a generalized intent of " guns are legal , common , and nothing to be ashamed of ".

While this general concept might be acomplished ( with an acceptable level of increased risk ) at certain times , preferably with a planned outing or event, a barroom by one's self is definatly NOT such an occasion.

Yeah the other side of the argument is talking about guns. While everyone agrees the topic that we don't discuss is carrying one. I see now that there's not 2 sides of an argument as talking about guns and conceal and carrying is a different topic that could get you in trouble.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 
Talking about guns and shooting is fine. Talking about concealed carry in the abstract is fine among good company. I enjoy a good conversation about the merits of a snubby versus semi-auto, or ammo for defense, or holster preferences.

However, even amongst the best company I do not discuss or disclose whether I am carrying or not. Even if asked directly I will not answer, even if I am not carrying. No possible good can come of it.
 
Talking about guns and shooting is fine. Talking about concealed carry in the abstract is fine among good company. I enjoy a good conversation about the merits of a snubby versus semi-auto, or ammo for defense, or holster preferences.

However, even amongst the best company I do not discuss or disclose whether I am carrying or not. Even if asked directly I will not answer, even if I am not carrying. No possible good can come of it.

I agree with you now. After reading all these replies I see its not two sides of an argument, it's 2 different topics of discussion. Guns and shooting and such is one topic but conceal and carry is another topic entirely. I'll fix that and not talk about it anymore

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 
Telling someone that you conceal and carry is a sign of immaturity and of a novice. Once you tell someone, you are no longer carrying concealed. Telling someone you just met in a bar is inexcusable.

You never said if you were drinking or not but I will assume you were because it is hard to do this much wrong while you are sober. Even if you were not drinking, staying with a crowd that's closing bars will lead to nothing good.

You are very fortunate that no one got hurt that night and I hope you have learned something from it, but your title, "I think I'm right" makes me question that. Hopefully after reading the comments here, you will look at your actions in a different light.

We all make mistakes, it is what is learned from them that is important.
 
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Yeah the other side of the argument is talking about guns. While everyone agrees the topic that we don't discuss is carrying one. I see now that there's not 2 sides of an argument as talking about guns and conceal and carrying is a different topic that could get you in trouble.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson

We're talking about it now...right here. Not at a bar.
You're young, and obviouslly you take your personal defense seriouslly - good for you. Now you have to realize that "legally" ccw puts you in a different category of responsibility. You MUST learn to be smart about carrying, and it's a never ending process.
Pick up a good book (Massad Ayoobs -"Concealed carry" would be a good start) and read it. You'll be glad you did.:cool:
 
I'm just shaking my head here. I make it a point to never advertise. Even my wife has to ask me if I'm carrying, sometimes.

Sometimes the anti-gun people are right. There are way too many people who buy guns, load them up, and carry them. They envision scenarios in which they'll be the hero and stop a bank robbery and protect the "innocent civilians", somehow thinking that having a gun in a holster transforms them into something other than a "civilian".

A lot of them figure that after shooting 50 rounds through them, they're ready for anything. Hey, I had a fist-sized group at 7 yards! All of those would stop an attacker in their tracks! Damn, I'm good!

What I find myself considering most is that if I ever am in a situation in which there is a holdup, I'll probably be just hitting the floor to avoid the poorly aimed spray of gunfire from some "honest citizen" trying to protect everyone from the bad guy.

I am still really good at the range - against paper and steel that stays where it is - and doesn't shoot back at me. I have no preconceived notions that my time at the range every week trains me for a gunfight. I also am not 100% sure that if faced with a gunfight scenario that I wouldn't just pee all over myself. Hell, sometimes when I laugh real hard, I pee a little, as it is. :)

I can say that with all sincerity, because I make fun of myself all of the time. If most people were really honest with themselves, they would realize that they're not nearly as good or as smart as they think they are.
 
Telling someone that you conceal and carry is a sign of immaturity and of a novice. Once you tell someone, you are no longer carrying concealed. Telling someone you just met in a bar is inexcusable.

You never said if you were drinking or not but I will assume you were because it is hard to do this much wrong while you are sober. Even if you were not drinking, staying with a crowd that's closing bars will lead to nothing good.

You are very fortunate that no one got hurt that night and I hope you have learned something from it, but your title, "I think I'm right" makes me question that. Hopefully after reading the comments here, you will look at your actions in a different light.

We all make mistakes, it is what is learned from them that is important.

I typed up an update on the bottom of the original post, probably while you were typing up this reply. But no, I was not drinking. I don't mix alcohol with cars, so I don't mix alcohol with guns either.

I originally thought I was right to not loan my gun to Jay, and to not bully the girl, and to leave shortly after. But you guys have brought up a variety of things I didn't notice before, so I know I was wrong before the situation happened.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 
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We're talking about it now...right here. Not at a bar.
You're young, and obviouslly you take your personal defense seriouslly - good for you. Now you have to realize that "legally" ccw puts you in a different category of responsibility. You MUST learn to be smart about carrying, and it's a never ending process.
Pick up a good book (Massad Ayoobs -"Concealed carry" would be a good start) and read it. You'll be glad you did.:cool:

And that's exactly why I post my stories here. So far the situations I've been in and typed up here came with a wave of criticism. I read it, get a little embarrassed, and fix what I did wrong. This time is no exception.
I fully understand that I'm young and dumb. So I did my best with the later part of the scenario and felt good that I avoided what could have been a murder, and surely would have been jail time. And then you guys picked me apart at all the other times I could have avoided the ridiculousness.

the original point and click interface, by Smith & Wesson
 

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