ID Help .38 Special Nickel British Proof Marks

[Epsnob]

Hello everybody,

I am new to the forum and happy to join your community. I have a question regarding a S&W revolver I just bought and was wondering if you all could help me identify it/provide additional information on the gun.

It's a 4" Barrel 5 screw Hand Ejector. From what I have read so far, it appears to be a M&P 1905 4th Change. It's chambered in .38 Special as indicated by the factory marking on the side of the barrel. The revolver is Nickel plated (not sure if from the factory or refinished). There appears to have been a butt swivel that has been plugged and I doubt the grips are the originals because they are in pristine shape.

Serial number is 758,408 and it matches in the butt, cylinder face, and under the barrel. There is no V prefix that I can see, but there seems to be a partial marking on the butt stock after the serial number and plugged butt swivel hole that I cannot figure out. The number on the yoke is 93546. The interesting thing is that it has British proof marks (BNP and the crossed swords).

I am confused about the gun because from what I read, revolvers of this era that ended in Britain for WWII were chambered in .38/200. I have also read that some were re-chambered to .38 Special, refinished, and re-imported to the US, but this one does not seem to be one of those because of the factory .38 Special cambering marking and matching serials. I also do not know if the Nickel finish is original and I hope to get a factory letter once the moratorium is lifted.

Could this just have been a civilian US revolver that somehow ended up in Britain during that time and eventually made it's way back home? Or were there any police departments in Britain that used the M&P in .38 Special? I also heard about a program in the US to send civilian weapons to the British during WWII, could this have been one of those?

I'm sure some of you will have some information. I'm very happy with the revolver because it is in good shape (looks way better than the pictures) and it's my first wheel gun. I don't really care if it has some historical significance, but it would be cool to know.

I'll be happy to provide any other information or pictures. Thanks a lot in advance!

Additional Pictures: https://ibb.co/album/phFX3d

 

[ordnanceguy]

Epsnob:

Welcome to the Forum. Stick around. You'll like it here.

You have an interesting pre-Victory. I can see why you might be confused. Your excellent photos make it easier to diagnose.

I can't be certain about the opinions that I will offer below, but I think the photos and other evidence support my conclusions. If you really want to know for certain then I recommend that you obtain a letter from the S&WHF when the temporary moratorium on letters expires.

I believe that your revolver was originally a 4 inch .38 Special gun. It came with a lanyard ring that has since been removed and the hole for it plugged.

The stocks have been replaced as well. Your revolver would have shipped from the factory with the checkered walnut service stocks with S&W silver medallions.

Your revolver was originally blued. Thus, it has been refinished to nickel. An original nickel revolver of this vintage should have N marked on the barrel flat and on the left side of the grip frame which is visible when the stocks are removed. I see no N on the photo of the barrel flat. I suspect that there is no N on the grip frame either. You might want to remove the stocks and check for that.

Your revolver was in the UK at some time after the end of WW2. Post-war it received the British commercial proof marks that you have observed.

Now for the interesting part. I suspect that your revolver was once marked U.S.N.C.P.C. on the backstrap. I do not see that marking in your photos and surmise that the marking has been removed. A close examination of the backstrap area and feeling it with your finger to detect any surface anomalies may aid you. The nickel plating may tend to conceal any anomalies in this area.

I believe it was probably a U.S.N.C.P.C. revolver because it falls neatly into the range for those guns. That information comes from the Victory Model Database. (BTW, U.S.N.C.P.C. stands for U.S. Navy Civilian Police Corps. A search of the Forum here will reveal many threads and a lot of info for you on that organization and the pre-Victory revolvers that were so marked, so I won't go into that now.) The U.S.N.C.P.C. revolvers had lanyard rings.

Further supporting my supposition is the knowledge that some of the U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were given to the British, which would explain the post-war proofs.

Finally, your photo of the bottom of the butt shows a nearly invisible partial marking to the right of the lanyard ring hole. I believe that it is the remnants of a circular mark with the letters RFI AID encircled. The precise meaning of that marking has never been firmly established but a couple of possibilities have surfaced. However, it is seen only on revolvers that were in British military service. That same marking has shown up on some of the U.S.N.C.P.C. revolvers that apparently ended up in the UK. Indeed, the VM Database shows a U.S.N.C.P.C. gun with that marking and with a serial number only 139 numbers away from your revolver.

Again, I cannot be certain of what I have told you here. However, I am reasonably confident that my opinions are sound. I would not mind at all being proven wrong, but I think I am on pretty firm footing here.

I hope that information is helpful to you. If you do end up getting a letter I hope that you will post the results here so we can all learn together.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[JohnRippert]

That is a really cool one for your first revolver. Enjoy it.

 

[Absalom]

Charlie’s excellent expose is a hard act to follow.

One thing that is unusual is that the British proofs seem quite clearly post-nickel applied, meaning the gun was nickeled in Britain. That would be perfectly possible, but uncommon. And the more I look at the detail close-ups on your hosting site, the less sure I am about the refinish.

But Charlie’s explanation is definitely the best bet for the available evidence. And I am frequently wrong about finishes

 

[Epsnob]

Thank you very much for the info, Charlie. I have taken the stocks off and found some markings along with some surface rust which I cleaned after taking the pictures (see attached). There is a B on one side. I guess that means that it was originally blued as you indicate in your post? On the other side, I found a partial mark that is hard to identify, but seems to have part of a letter V and what appears to be a D1. Any idea of what these could mean?

I also passed my finger through the back strap, but couldn't feel anything other than the slight pitting that is also appreciated in the pictures. I will continue to research the U.S.N.C.P.C. guns you mention though, super cool part of history!

I am thinking of removing the nickel finish and re-blueing the revolver if I can confirm that it was blued from the factory with a letter (although it appears pretty obvious). Again, I am not interested in selling it or anything (probably never will as it's the first revolver in my collection), but restoring it to it's factory conditions by re bluing, adding a lanyard ring, and the original stocks sounds like a cool project for the future. Any thoughts?

Thanks again everybody! I have a feeling I'll stick around.

Epsnob:

Welcome to the Forum. Stick around. You'll like it here.

You have an interesting pre-Victory. I can see why you might be confused. Your excellent photos make it easier to diagnose.

I can't be certain about the opinions that I will offer below, but I think the photos and other evidence support my conclusions. If you really want to know for certain then I recommend that you obtain a letter from the S&WHF when the temporary moratorium on letters expires.

I believe that your revolver was originally a 4 inch .38 Special gun. It came with a lanyard ring that has since been removed and the hole for it plugged.

The stocks have been replaced as well. Your revolver would have shipped from the factory with the checkered walnut service stocks with S&W silver medallions.

Your revolver was originally blued. Thus, it has been refinished to nickel. An original nickel revolver of this vintage should have N marked on the barrel flat and on the left side of the grip frame which is visible when the stocks are removed. I see no N on the photo of the barrel flat. I suspect that there is no N on the grip frame either. You might want to remove the stocks and check for that.

Your revolver was in the UK at some time after the end of WW2. Post-war it received the British commercial proof marks that you have observed.

Now for the interesting part. I suspect that your revolver was once marked U.S.N.C.P.C. on the backstrap. I do not see that marking in your photos and surmise that the marking has been removed. A close examination of the backstrap area and feeling it with your finger to detect any surface anomalies may aid you. The nickel plating may tend to conceal any anomalies in this area.

I believe it was probably a U.S.N.C.P.C. revolver because it falls neatly into the range for those guns. That information comes from the Victory Model Database. (BTW, U.S.N.C.P.C. stands for U.S. Navy Civilian Police Corps. A search of the Forum here will reveal many threads and a lot of info for you on that organization and the pre-Victory revolvers that were so marked, so I won't go into that now.) The U.S.N.C.P.C. revolvers had lanyard rings.

Further supporting my supposition is the knowledge that some of the U.S.N.C.P.C. guns were given to the British, which would explain the post-war proofs.

Finally, your photo of the bottom of the butt shows a nearly invisible partial marking to the right of the lanyard ring hole. I believe that it is the remnants of a circular mark with the letters RFI AID encircled. The precise meaning of that marking has never been firmly established but a couple of possibilities have surfaced. However, it is seen only on revolvers that were in British military service. That same marking has shown up on some of the U.S.N.C.P.C. revolvers that apparently ended up in the UK. Indeed, the VM Database shows a U.S.N.C.P.C. gun with that marking and with a serial number only 139 numbers away from your revolver.

Again, I cannot be certain of what I have told you here. However, I am reasonably confident that my opinions are sound. I would not mind at all being proven wrong, but I think I am on pretty firm footing here.

I hope that information is helpful to you. If you do end up getting a letter I hope that you will post the results here so we can all learn together.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[Muley Gil]

You would be better selling that revolver and buying what you want. The bluing available today is not what was available before WW II. It takes a LOT of work to remove the pitting that is seen on the grip frame.

The .38 Military & Police revolver is the most common revolver built by S&W. Other than it being your 1st, it has no family connection nor is it a rare firearm. You would basically be spending $500 on a $250 revolver and it would still only be worth $250-$300.

 

[Epsnob]

Hello fellow Virginian! I understand what you say and it makes sense. I will probably keep it anyway, I am not bothered by the nickel finish. I was just thinking of a restoration project for fun and maybe to uncover other markings that may have been covered by the nickel, not for any monetary reasons. I see what you mean though, doesn't really make sense to spend money on it. Either way, I'm hoping to get my hands on some .38 Special so I can go shoot it. I think I will eventually get a model 13 or 19..

Best,

Alan

You would be better selling that revolver and buying what you want. The bluing available today is not what was available before WW II. It takes a LOT of work to remove the pitting that is seen on the grip frame.

The .38 Military & Police revolver is the most common revolver built by S&W. Other than it being your 1st, it has no family connection nor is it a rare firearm. You would basically be spending $500 on a $250 revolver and it would still only be worth $250-$300.

 

[Jim Watson]

uncover other markings that may have been covered by the nickel,

Nickel plating doesn't cover much. What you get is what you already see, nickel plated stamps.

I'd paint the sights so they wouldn't glint and enjoy shooting.

 

[2152hq]

#2 photo of the orig set of pics shows the cylinder proof mark (and that they proof marked every chamber I believe)
..In the same pic, down on the very front forward edge on the left side of the frame is the Birmingham Proof Date Code stamped there.

That will tell you what year the proofing was done by looking up the code letter used.
Here's one chart that's pretty easy to use:
Birmingham Proof House Date Codes

The Crown/BNP mark on the cylinder is the Nitro Proof marking type used since the 1955 Proof Law in England.
(Prior to that under the 1925 Proof Law the Birmngham Nitro Proof Mark was Crown/NP)

What's missing from the revolver are the required Birmingham Definitive Proof Mark (Crown/BP) and the Birmingman View Inspection Mark (Crown/BV).

All of these marks,,the Crown/BNP,,BP and BV are suposed to be within a circle. Each proof mark stamp inside a circle.
The circle denotes the proof are applied to a firearm of other than English mfgr.
The 1955 proof law did away with the 'Not English Make' marking of the earlier 1925 Proof Law. But like the 1925 Law, kept that regulation of each proof stamp being within a circle on non English make firearms.

The 1925 Law did require each chamber on a revolver to be proof fired and so marked.
The 1955 Law did only require every other chamber be fired and marked on a 6 shot revolver. On a 5 shot revolver 3 of the 5 had to be proofed and marked.

Missing markings could be from the polish and plating. But the proofs look like they applied through the plating.
I have read that when the '55 Law went into effect some at the Proof Houses (London & Birmingham) took their time switching to the new rules. So that could explain the 6 cchamber proofs and the newer 1955 Law mark.
But the missing Circle around the mark to show a foreign made firearm,,that was law since 1925.
The stamp used for that was a one piece stamp complete with the circle..not done in 2 steps.

The all together missing View and Definitive proof markings?? Gone during plating/polishing (but it may be that the gun was proofed AFTER plating).. Maybe they just never made it onto the gun.

Interesting gun for sure..

 

[Mk VII]

Are there British marks on the bbl itself? If not it has been changed.

 

[Absalom]

All of these marks,,the Crown/BNP,,BP and BV are suposed to be within a circle. Each proof mark stamp inside a circle.
The circle denotes the proof are applied to a firearm of other than English mfgr.
The 1955 proof law did away with the 'Not English Make' marking of the earlier 1925 Proof Law. But like the 1925 Law, kept that regulation of each proof stamp being within a circle on non English make firearms.
.

That is not correct. The 1955 Rule abandoned the circle.

However, what the gun is missing, suspiciously, on the barrel is this (substitute 1.15" and 4 tons for .38 Special).

It would be on the left side, or rarely on the barrel flat underneath, for Birmingham. London put theirs usually on the barrel's right side.

 

[2152hq]

Yes you are correct.
The 1925 Law required the Definitive Proof Mark, View and Nitro Proof on the bbl....Crown/ BP,,BV,,NP
All each within a circle on non-Brit made forearms.

The 1955 Law changed that to the Nitro proof mark now the Crown/BNP mark only along with the cartridge info/length/pressure shown.