ID Help, Please

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

I am getting ready to acquire this revolver, but I believe the seller's description may be off?

"This is a classic Smith and Wesson 1905, 4th Change. These were manufactured between 1915 and 1942 and has pre- WW2 checkered walnut grips with the S&W logo in silver. It is a 5 screw pre-model 10."

Please take a look at the attached images and let me know what you think. I don't have the serial number. For one thing, the rectangular cut-out at the rear of the sighting groove seems to be a feature of later revolvers.

Any help appreciated, including a rough idea of what a revolver like the one pictures should be worth.

TIA,

Tom

 

[glowe]

My major problem is the lack of MADE IN USE stamp to the right side of the frame under the cylinder. If the frame is post-1922, it should have the stamp. The stocks are 1930s, the barrel shaped ejector rod knob is post 1927. The lanyard ring suggests Victory or British Service Revolver, but I do not see a "V" stamp ahead of the lanyard?? Serial number is the first step at deciphering this example. The right side large logo originally ran prior to around 1916 and did not reappear until 1937.

Maybe an expertly refinished gun? Do I see a slight dishing around the pin above the stock on the left side? I thought that rear sighting system went along with the sloped front sight?? The gun and stocks look perfect otherwise.

 

[Absalom]

.....
Maybe an expertly refinished gun?..... The gun and stocks look perfect otherwise.

Everything that Gary pointed out leads me to the same conclusion. The butt serial position and lanyard point to a pre-war frame, most likely a pre-Victory, but swivels were always available. The inconsistencies that Gary listed can only be reconciled if it is either refinished with removal of the MADE IN USA, or it is a Frankengun. And the stocks especially look almost too good to be true.

PS: As regards the rear sight, my 1923 M&P has a rectangular notch if I’m not mistaken.

 

[Targets Guy]

I'm thinking an early 40's .38M&P hand ejector. I don't own this weapon but kept a picture of it when I was searching for a 1930's M&P. S/N is in the 7xxxxx if I read the back of the cylinder correctly. Same stocks as yours and looks pretty close to what you show.

A 1942 model?

 

[rct269]

Well the serial number appears to be 88-something---and if that gun has been refinished, it was done by THE WIZARD of all wizards!!

So, speaking of wizards, what do our M&P wizards have to say? Seems like JAPAK (??---our friend in Alaska) is one of those----maybe THE one of those.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Targets Guy]

I do own this one. s/n 765xxx and it shipped 4/41. It is a 5" barrel with swivel hole.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I read the SN as 88XXXX from the butt. Except for the missing Made in USA, it looks righteous to me. I seem to recall that in that timeframe there were stamping errors made. It would have been early 1942 and things were ramping up rapidly. Mike, I don't think the gun you show is the same as the one the OP posted. I see backstrap rust on yours that I don't see on the OP's.

If that gun is truly righteous and as clean as it looks, it could bring $500-600.

 

[Absalom]

Mike:
Unless you can come up with an explanation for the missing MADE IN USA, none of your pictures help any

 

[DWalt]

Yes. The missing MADE IN USA frame stamp is highly problematic. Otherwise it has all of the features expected of any M&P from the late 1930s to early 1940s period. An 88xxxx SN suggests late 1941. When you get a better look at it, check to ensure that all the main SNs match - Butt, rear face of cylinder, bottom of barrel, and inside of the right grip panel. It does not appear to have been refinished. Ignoring the missing frame stamp, I'd say a price in the $500-600 range would be fair for a private sale if everything else checks out. Some might be willing to go a little higher.

 

[Absalom]

I read the SN as 88XXXX from the butt. Except for the missing Made in USA, it looks righteous to me. I seem to recall that in that timeframe there were stamping errors made. It would have been early 1942 and things were ramping up rapidly..

I think “stamping error” should be our very last refuge

All features of the gun are consistent with a late-1930 to late 1941 M&P made for an official contract of some sort. EXCEPT for the missing MADE IN USA stamping.

The gun is otherwise in almost spooky-good condition, apart from the turn line. There is sideplate damage right next to the front sideplate screw, and overall sideplate fit is unimpressive, although not obviously out of bounds. On the other hand, the logo seems crisp and certainly does not indicate any buffing.

There are refinishers who know what they’re doing, although removal of the MADE IN USA makes little sense.

So I don’t know. I wouldn’t buy the gun. Too uncertain, looking at it as a collector.

 

[Targets Guy]

Mike:
Unless you can come up with an explanation for the missing MADE IN USA, none of your pictures help any

Well that is a shame. They were meant to. The first shows the exact same stocks and the fact the rear sight area is identical and gives a date of 1942. The second shows a similar gun with a full s/n and the fact the swivel hole is present. It also gives a firm ship date of 1941. The serial number is below the OP's serial number thus locking down the date fairly well.

The missing "Made in USA" is either a result of a refinish or S&W just didn't do it; both very reasonable given what I have read about Smith & Wesson production practices through the years. They would have been pretty busy in '41/'42.

 

[murphydog]

My guess it is an original .38 M & P that would letter to a military or related (defense, law enforcement) destination.

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/Letter_request_form.pdf

Unlikely to find a reason for the missing "Made in U.S.A." frame stamp, but if the area doesn't look refinished it's probably a simple production step omission. Good luck in your purchase decision.

 

[JP@AK]

Ralph
I had about decided not to comment on this thread - everyone else was doing a good job of speculating about it.

But since you asked, here are a few of my thoughts:
1. Pretty much everything about this gun says "late '30s or early '40s" except:
2. The lack of Made in U.S.A. on the frame. That could be explained in one of two ways - either it was simply missed (always a possibility) or a refinish eliminated it.
3. I tend to reject the refinish option because there seems to be no evidence of it. The pin does not look flattened and the sideplate seam is tight. Also, the counterbore on the sideplate screws appears to be normal.
4. The serial appears to start with 88, confirming (if true) an M&P made just before the war period (or at least before U.S. involvement). The lanyard swivel tells us nothing, for reasons previously stated, but it does appear to be original, so it would be consistent with a gun assembled in the period being discussed.

What we need to know, at least, is the full serial number and whether the stocks number to this gun. Those factors would be a huge step toward identifying this revolver.

If someone restored and refinished this revolver, they did one heck of a good job of it.

Happy now?

 

[DWalt]

Regarding the missing frame stamp, the picture is good enough to show that it's likely that it was never applied. Had it been buffed or ground off, that would be readily apparent. I'd side with the opinion that this M&P somehow (intentionally or unintentionally) missed the stamping operation.

 

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

Thanks, Everybody

All great input -- thanks.

Stay tuned...

Tom

 

[rct269]

How about this for no "Made in U.S.A." stamp? The roll die was broken when that frame came along.

So---what to do? I know!!--------we'll shut everything down, and send everyone home until the die gets fixed. That'll work, right?!!

I didn't think so either!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with members above; and especially on the missing MADE IN U.S.A. stamp. That's unusual.

The satin blue speaks to a factory post war re-finish. That will also explain the 'flattened' trigger rebound spring pin above the left stock and slightly weak logo.

I'd want to know two things:

1) If there's a factory rework date on the left side of grip frame under the stock.
2) if there's a serial # on back of the right grip and if so, does it match the gun?

SERIAL # LOCATIONS: To confirm all parts are original, one can check for the 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 (and a few as much as 3 years later).
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, requires magnification, bright light, cleaning, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Gun butt – (or fore strap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt)

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star – backside facing cyl

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - stamped on back for that vintage

 

[Absalom]

...
The satin blue speaks to a factory post war re-finish. That will also explain the 'flattened' trigger rebound spring pin above the left stock and slightly weak logo.

I'd want to know two things:

1) If there's a factory rework date on the left side of grip frame under the stock.
2) if there's a serial # on back of the right grip and if so, does it match the gun?
...

Jim:
Just a detail question: if this was a factory refinish, obviously these wouldn’t be the original stocks. Would a factory refurbishment have included providing replacement stocks period-correct for the gun and maybe serial-stamping them? As we know from the four-line inflicted on older M&P’s during factory re-work, authenticity wasn’t exactly a priority ...

 

[DWalt]

The Hellstrom notes say that the brush blue finish began in 10/41 at around SN 860000, and was used until around 3/42. That's the finish this one has. No originality inconsistency at all. I thought about mentioning that earlier but forgot to.

 

[Absalom]

The Hellstrom notes say that the brush blue finish began in 10/41 at around SN 860000, and was used until around 3/42. That's the finish this one has. No originality inconsistency at all. I thought about mentioning that earlier but forgot to.

That brings us back to the question exactly what Hellstrom’s “brush blue” until 3/42, which the Williams notes call “brush polish blue” and show in use until 4/42, actually looked like. The attached gun, whose finish looks different from the OP’s, is from 1/42 and should have it.

 

[Hondo44]

DWalt,

I believe you're referring to what's also been described as the 'sandblast brush blue'. And refers to a service model finish.

'Satin blue' is different due to just a lesser polish before bluing used on pre ~ 1955 post war coml models and post war factory refinishes.

 

[Camster]

I like it.
However given the concern over the USA stamp, my eye is looking for other things that might not jive. The "Wesson" on the left side of the barrel looks a little washed out to me.Perhaps just the way that it was applied,but....

 

[Hondo44]

Jim:
Just a detail question: if this was a factory refinish, obviously these wouldn’t be the original stocks. Would a factory refurbishment have included providing replacement stocks period-correct for the gun and maybe serial-stamping them? As we know from the four-line inflicted on older M&P’s during factory re-work, authenticity wasn’t exactly a priority ...

It's hard to say firmly what would have been done. The correct pre war grips were used after the war as NOS stocks were used up. If the stocks are numbered or not will tell us something.

 

[Hondo44]

I like it.
However given the concern over the USA stamp, my eye is looking for other things that might not jive. The "Wesson" on the left side of the barrel looks a little washed out to me.Perhaps just the way that it was applied,but....

I don't have a lot of concern about the missing M I USA stamp; it's reported on this model of this vintage, even more so on the target models.

 

[gmborkovic]

Lets be honest, if Tom loves it, who cares. Its a nice looking gun and will be a great shooter. I like it, getting hard to find. So there. Mike

 

[shouldazagged]

Whatever the story on that nice revolver might be, I'd be proud to own it and happy to shoot it. A lot.

 

[Absalom]

Lets be honest, if Tom loves it, who cares.....

Are you trying to disparage our way to keep ourselves entertained on weekends?

Joking aside, it comes down to the price. For a realistic used-shooter price, say below 350, I’d roll the dice on that gun anytime. On the other hand, with authenticity confirmed the gun in that condition could easily be 6-700 or more, and if the seller should envision that price level, the hard questions need to be answered.

 

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

Serial Number

The serial number of this piece is 883759

 

[Tom in Pittsburgh]

Update

Well, I made the leap and purchased this piece from Cabela's Gun Library. If you don't count my hour drive in both directions, and include the tax, it cost me just north of $600.

Now that I actually have this revolver in my hands, I can provide some additional information -- along with an opinion and question or two.

First of all, attached are a couple of shots of the grips. The serial number of the revolver is stamped inside the right grip, but I don't have enough experience to opine whether the stamping is original, legitimately added later, or simply bogus.

Also attached are images of both sides of the grip frames, with the grips removed. I don't see any date stampings.

Also attached is a photo of the serial number from the bottom of the barrel. What does the "S" signify? Note that a similar "S" also appears stamped on the bottom of the right grip frame.

I have also confirmed that the serial numbers matched in all five locations spelled out by Hondo44.

To my uneducated eye, the bluing appears to have been redone. Evidence is the weakness on the right side of the S&W logo, and also the letters at the beginning and end of the "SMITH & WESSON" on the left side of the barrel. There is no dishing or other indication that there was ever a "MADE IN USA" marking on the right side of the frame. There is also no import mark that I can see.

That's all I can think of at the moment -- thanks for all your help. Great board!

Tom

P.S. Just a posting question. Instead of attaching images, how can I embed them in the posting text -- as some of you have? Thanks.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The grips number to the gun, at least, to the SN under the barrel. The 88 is left and below the other numbers and the 3 is separated from 759.

There are 3 ways to insert images in the text. See the Insert Image icon on the command line? It is the yellow square with mountains and a moon. You upload your image to a hosting site like Imgur, copy the image's URL, put your cursor in the text box where you want the image to show, then click the Insert IMG icon, paste the copied URL into the box and insert. Most hosting sites make it even easier by inserting the BB Code into the URL so you don't have to click on the icon, you just paste the whole thing. Another way is to become a Contributing Member or SWCA member and you will be given an album here to upload to. It works the same way I just mentioned. The third way is to upload your pictures as attachments, as you've been doing. Then right click on the image and click "Copy Image Location". Then, use the insert image feature and paste the image location into the box and insert. If you use the last way, the image is displayed in the text and as an attachment.