Identification help, please

[DCWilson]

This is not a Smith & Wesson, but S&W is referenced in a patent stamp. It is an extremely well engineered and solid revolver with no maker marks on it anywhere. The only inscription is on the barrel rib:

APPROVED SMITH AND WESSON SYSTEM PATENT, followed by a date that is hard to read, but the year may be 1874.

The revolver is a five shot .38 rimfire. Dark wood birdshead grips. The cylinder stop is in the top strap of the frame and engages when the hammer is cocked.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/...8-a0c6-43a0-aeac-e25ce9b8fde8_zpsfffb1eda.jpg

Note the solid frame. The cylinder must be removed to eject empties and reload.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[opoefc]

David, It appears to be American made and reminds me of the Mohawk ( aka: Rome ) revolvers. I have a feeling I've seen the style extractor somewhere in the past. Perhaps a prototype? Are the screws thread American or metric? Any idea on what type of wood the grips may be? Ed.

 

[DWalt]

I've seen a couple of Mohawks, and as I remember they don't look like the one pictured. Problem is there were numerous manufacturers of these "Suicide Specials" during the late 19th Century, and their products all looked very similar.

 

[DCWilson]

Thank you both, but I found one other mark that seems to point to Belgium. The little divot you can see on the right side of the barrel under the swoop that marks the beginning of the rib is, under magnification, a Crown over N.

I have come up with another question about a different gun for which I regrettably have no photo. It looks for all the world like a S&W No. 1 with one major difference mentioned below. It is a short-cylinder seven shot .22 with similar dimensions and a birds-head grip. On the barrel is marked

MADE FOR SMITH AND WESSON BY ROLLIN WHITE ARMS CO. (or something very close to that wording.)

The frame is brass and solid, neither tip-up nor top-break. You must pull the cylinder shaft forward under the barrel in order to be able to push the cylinder out for ejecting and reloading. There are no patent dates. I certainly know the role of Rollin Hand in S&W history, and I am wondering if this was an early prototype or if it was a solid frame continuation of the .22 line after S&W decided to suspend production.

I haven't seen one of these before, either.

 

[ky wonder]

crown over n sounds like the germen nitro proof

 

[mmaher94087]

DCWilson, your first revolver reminds me of a Shattock but I can't understand the "Crown over N" mark unless it went over the pond.

Your second revolver is a First Model Rollin White. Usually they are found with the Rollin White roll mark on the top of the barrel rib and the "Made for Smith & Wesson" on the left upper barrel flat. There are examples marked as is yours. Mike #283

 

[first-model]

Your second revolver is a First Model Rollin White. Usually they are found with the Rollin White roll mark on the top of the barrel rib and the "Made for Smith & Wesson" on the left upper barrel flat. There are examples marked as is yours. Mike #283

What Mike said.

To expand on this briefly ... Rollin White owned the patent on the bored-through cylinder that allowed cartridges to be loaded through the rear (as opposed to loading through the muzzle, as was the case with older Colts, etc.). Smith & Wesson licensed this patent exclusively, which is how they became such an economic powerhouse of firearms manufacturing in the 1860's.

Many companies (including Rollin White himself) violated this patent, and their guns would be subsequently marked with Smith & Wesson's name on them (and sold, of course, with proceeds going back to S&W).

I have read some accounts that indicate Rollin White produced guns under contract for S&W, but I've never been able to substantiate that claim to my satisfaction.

Either way, it's an interesting piece of firearms history.

Mike

 

[DWalt]

The first one is not like any Shattuck I have seen.

 

[deadin]

I don't know what the first one is, but I like it. I wouldn't mind owning it if the price were reasonable.

 

[opoefc]

David, See Flayderman for Rollin White, # 8A-191, for the gun you are describing. Ed.

 

[DWalt]

I also looked through Flayderman, and did not see any revolvers closely resembling the first revolver. It also has a few things to say about the Rollin White revolvers, and suggests strongly that the Rollin Whites were essentially made to be sold by S&W during the CW to meet demand beyond S&W's ability to produce, as all were sold through S&W outlets. There must have been some business arrangement between S&W and White, but Flayderman's does not elaborate.

 

[DCWilson]

Thank you all. The two guns I mentioned were in a peculiar and somewhat unfocused estate collection that I was helping the owners of my LGS to evaluate. I keep thinking about these two, so I may go back and make an offer on them.

As a footnote, I think the barrel stamp on the first one must read IMPROVED SMITH AND WESSON SYSTEM rather than "APPROVED." I found an internet reference to such a stamp on a gun that looks somewhat different from this one.

The owners allowed me first refusal on anything in the collection, and I let everything go except for a few items that are of collector interest and which I will post on the S&W Forum eventually. Right now they are still subject to a 30-day pawn hold and I can't take them home until early January.