This is my first post on this site,so I apologize ,If I omit something. I trying to figure out the exact model of this revolver and its value.The serial number listed on the bottom of the gun and on the cylinder is 11234 , .38 S&W single action top-break and second barrel single shot .22 LR wihout serial number.
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Identification of an old S&W in box
- Thread starter Gassali
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Welcome to the Forum. The model is stamped on the top of the barrel. Model of 1891. Collectors would call the revolver a 38 Single Action, 3rd Model. With the single shot barrel attached, it becomes a 1st Model Single Shot. You appear to have a combination set complete with accessories and wood case. The only problem is that the single shot barrel is plated and the gun is blued. Find a serial number on that barrel to determine if it came with the set or not? Let us know. The revolver frame and cylinder appear to match and the caliber is 38 S&W, a short cartridge typically shot with a 145g lead bullet. All 1891 revolvers are antiques as classified by the BATF, since frames were made and stamped before 1899.
Boulder350
SWCA Member
Wow Gassali!
Beautiful case and accessories! I looked in the book "Smith & Wesson 1857 - 1945" by Neal and Jinks for your serial number, shown on the bottom of the revolver, and it does not show up as a single shot or a combination set that originally shipped from the factory. The list is not complete so the revolver may or may not have been shipped in the case. A letter from the Smith and Wesson historical foundation would tell us more info about your revolver.
Based on the picture you provided your case looks to be factory original. The revolver has defiantly seen some use. Based on the provided pictures the pearl grips appear to be non factory. They don't look to fit perfectly, they look a little thin, and they are not perfectly shaped based on the picture. It's better to have the gun in hand to know for sure.
As Gary pointed out its odd that the finish is not the same on the gun and the extra barrel. Thats not to say they did not ship together.
Its estimated that there were 92 combination sets shipped from the factory in the 1890's. The screwdriver is very hard to find too.
I'm jealous!
Beautiful case and accessories! I looked in the book "Smith & Wesson 1857 - 1945" by Neal and Jinks for your serial number, shown on the bottom of the revolver, and it does not show up as a single shot or a combination set that originally shipped from the factory. The list is not complete so the revolver may or may not have been shipped in the case. A letter from the Smith and Wesson historical foundation would tell us more info about your revolver.
Based on the picture you provided your case looks to be factory original. The revolver has defiantly seen some use. Based on the provided pictures the pearl grips appear to be non factory. They don't look to fit perfectly, they look a little thin, and they are not perfectly shaped based on the picture. It's better to have the gun in hand to know for sure.
As Gary pointed out its odd that the finish is not the same on the gun and the extra barrel. Thats not to say they did not ship together.
Its estimated that there were 92 combination sets shipped from the factory in the 1890's. The screwdriver is very hard to find too.
I'm jealous!
MetalMan
Member
Great first post!! You even posted the "obligatory" photos...LOL
Very interesting piece...I'm sure that you'll learn much more about it from our forum experts.
Very interesting piece...I'm sure that you'll learn much more about it from our forum experts.
The serial number (if any) on the .22 barrel will be found in the recess at the rear where the latch is----like so:
Raise the latch. Look at the right hand side of the vertical surface inside the recess at the rear of the barrel. That's where the number's to be found. (Given a long number, it'll start on the right hand side, and end on the left.) You've hit the jackpot if it matches the number of the revolver. It's just another day at the office otherwise.
Ralph Tremaine
Raise the latch. Look at the right hand side of the vertical surface inside the recess at the rear of the barrel. That's where the number's to be found. (Given a long number, it'll start on the right hand side, and end on the left.) You've hit the jackpot if it matches the number of the revolver. It's just another day at the office otherwise.
Ralph Tremaine
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Assembled set
Serial number on the bottom of the grip frame eliminates this example from being an original target gun.
Years ago parts for the Model of 91 SA were not uncommon. Especially barrels and cylinders. I’ve seen some frames also in parts boxes at shows. This set has definitely been assembled.
I wonder if the 38 barrel matches the frame and cylinder number?
The wood case is very nice but later vintage. You can see the large gaps in the inserts and lacking scribe marks at the hinges.
Murph
Serial number on the bottom of the grip frame eliminates this example from being an original target gun.
Years ago parts for the Model of 91 SA were not uncommon. Especially barrels and cylinders. I’ve seen some frames also in parts boxes at shows. This set has definitely been assembled.
I wonder if the 38 barrel matches the frame and cylinder number?
The wood case is very nice but later vintage. You can see the large gaps in the inserts and lacking scribe marks at the hinges.
Murph
Attachments
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Boulder350
SWCA Member
The wood case looks totally factory original to me. There are several pictures of the factory cased sets in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson. The case in the original post has hinges, latch, case corners, accessories, support for the cleaning brush... that look like the original cases in the book. I have always wanted to own an original combo set.
There doesn't seem to be many rules on these combo sets. My guess is there were several factory runs of these sets and they may have followed different rules for each run. The sets could also be custom ordered in any combination the owner wanted. There is a picture of a double action gun that is in the same factory case with extra barrels and accessories in the above mentioned book. It says it is a factory set. On those custom orders they were probably taking a gun that was already made and in stock, and adding the extra barrels, sights, accessories... to complete the set.
Its interesting the revolver does not have target sights. If the buyer could afford a combo case with extra barrels, they could probably afford target sights on the revolver too, but who knows for sure.
There doesn't seem to be many rules on these combo sets. My guess is there were several factory runs of these sets and they may have followed different rules for each run. The sets could also be custom ordered in any combination the owner wanted. There is a picture of a double action gun that is in the same factory case with extra barrels and accessories in the above mentioned book. It says it is a factory set. On those custom orders they were probably taking a gun that was already made and in stock, and adding the extra barrels, sights, accessories... to complete the set.
Its interesting the revolver does not have target sights. If the buyer could afford a combo case with extra barrels, they could probably afford target sights on the revolver too, but who knows for sure.
Jim Watson
Member
Target shoot with the single barrel, fight your way home with the revolver.
I've been told the handgun is to be used to fight your way to a rifle.
Ralph Tremaine
Boulder350 makes an interesting point: "-------------they were probably taking a gun that was already made and in stock, and adding"----------- whatever.
I had a Model of '91 revolver---lettered as shipped as a Target---and carried an unnumbered latch/sight. Jinks explains this thus: "This handgun was a special order and it would have been my opinion it would have been pulled from stock and fit with the target sights which would not have been numbered to the revolver."
He later explained why the latch/sight would not have been numbered: The Service Department folks worked on one gun at a time, with no parts from other guns on their bench, and therefore had no need to number any parts.
Ralph Tremaine
I had a Model of '91 revolver---lettered as shipped as a Target---and carried an unnumbered latch/sight. Jinks explains this thus: "This handgun was a special order and it would have been my opinion it would have been pulled from stock and fit with the target sights which would not have been numbered to the revolver."
He later explained why the latch/sight would not have been numbered: The Service Department folks worked on one gun at a time, with no parts from other guns on their bench, and therefore had no need to number any parts.
Ralph Tremaine
If the OP comes back, is the lining chamois leather? The case is made exactly like others I have seen, complete with the correct hinges and lock. This is how the factory shipped them with various accessories depending on what the customer ordered. Problem is that your serial number is not listed in the Jinks book as a known combination set. Screwdriver is correct as well as the 2 brushes with the loop, cutouts are correct, and has the proper hard rubber target stocks. A customer could have asked for a nickel single shot barrel, but not a likely combination. There were less than 100 made as far as Roy can determine, so if the barrel has a matching serial number, you should obtain a letter of authenticity.
These barrels got shot out with a lot of corrosive 22 rounds and the nickel barrel could be a replacement?? S&W factory had lots of spare barrels at the factory until they were hauled out by Bill Orr around 1960 along with a truck full of old S&W parts he purchased. They were for sale at Proppert's for years.
Here is an example of one such combination set and there is another set shown in the Neal & Jinks book.
These barrels got shot out with a lot of corrosive 22 rounds and the nickel barrel could be a replacement?? S&W factory had lots of spare barrels at the factory until they were hauled out by Bill Orr around 1960 along with a truck full of old S&W parts he purchased. They were for sale at Proppert's for years.
Here is an example of one such combination set and there is another set shown in the Neal & Jinks book.
Attachments
I did some research to find a ship date of the OP's combination set and found 11237 shipped in 1896, only 3 numbers away from 11234! Roy's book shows that almost all combination sets were shipped in groupings of serial numbers. This would bolster the case that the OP's gun and accessories are legit, but the single shot barrel might have been replaced.
Nobody knows how many first model Single Shots were made in .22 caliber. N&J accounts for 862 (including the 63 combination sets)----and those serial numbers end at 18873. My 1st models ended at 23001. Those of us that are inclined to guess at such things guess there were somewhere between 200-250 1st models more than those accounted for---and that includes #14272 which letters as a 10" .22---and is in fact an 8" .32---also included in those of mine. The bottom line is as I said---nobody knows.
Sadly enough, nobody seems to care----probably because there's not a damn thing to be done about it.
Here's my SWAG as to how 14272, an 8" .32 got counted as a 10" .22: The little old lady who put guns in boxes and sent them to the shipping vault put 14272 in a box for a 10".22---and that was the last time anybody actually looked at it until it arrived at Hartley & Graham Co. That was the last chance anybody had to set things right. H&G's receiving clerk called out to the boss, telling him S&W sent the wrong gun----that they'd ordered a 10" .22, and S&W sent an 8" .32. The Boss said, "That's okay, we can sell it---just put it in stock---and tell S&W to send us a 10" .22." Done and done!!
Ralph Tremaine
Sadly enough, nobody seems to care----probably because there's not a damn thing to be done about it.
Here's my SWAG as to how 14272, an 8" .32 got counted as a 10" .22: The little old lady who put guns in boxes and sent them to the shipping vault put 14272 in a box for a 10".22---and that was the last time anybody actually looked at it until it arrived at Hartley & Graham Co. That was the last chance anybody had to set things right. H&G's receiving clerk called out to the boss, telling him S&W sent the wrong gun----that they'd ordered a 10" .22, and S&W sent an 8" .32. The Boss said, "That's okay, we can sell it---just put it in stock---and tell S&W to send us a 10" .22." Done and done!!
Ralph Tremaine
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Single shot combo sets
According to Dr. Jinks,
All TARGET single shots were stamped with a serial number on the front grip strap. All combo sets were FACTORY TARGET FRAMES. So a legit Combo Set the frame would have the serial number on the front grip strap. Not under the grip like the ops.
I have the older Neal & Jinks book and on page 32 it lists the 22 combo sets by serial number. There were only 63 listed! That’s RARE! With an open mind? That’s really rare.
The combo serial number closest to the OP,s is serial number 9125. The next is serial number 15138. Unless I’m missing something here there is nothing close to the ops serial number.
Also, wood cases are probably the most common reproduced antique item out there. Attention to detail helps a lot.
Murph
According to Dr. Jinks,
All TARGET single shots were stamped with a serial number on the front grip strap. All combo sets were FACTORY TARGET FRAMES. So a legit Combo Set the frame would have the serial number on the front grip strap. Not under the grip like the ops.
I have the older Neal & Jinks book and on page 32 it lists the 22 combo sets by serial number. There were only 63 listed! That’s RARE! With an open mind? That’s really rare.
The combo serial number closest to the OP,s is serial number 9125. The next is serial number 15138. Unless I’m missing something here there is nothing close to the ops serial number.
Also, wood cases are probably the most common reproduced antique item out there. Attention to detail helps a lot.
Murph
Boulder350
SWCA Member
Agreed. What makes it more confusing I have seen several different style of these cases in the books I have. Since the original post, I have been looking at my Smith and Wesson books. There are also pictures of these Model of 91 combination cases wrapped on the outside with leather instead of the exposed wood.
1891SingleShot
Member
So what is anyone's guess as to value based on what we think it is, a put together set with mismatched finish between the revolver and the single shot barrel, in a most likely original, maybe, box with accessories? Lots of variables and it's a tough one to value, but my guess is $1500. I'm interested in what you all feel it's worth.
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GLOWE... Well... I have some of those combo sets that are listed in the Neal & Jinks Book, you know... with the C over the number. I also have the letters for the same matching number examples that state "clearly not shipped as a combo set". The ledger sheet shows ALL the serial numbers marked in the book with the "C" as written out with "22 TARGET" on the line. I now wonder where the info came from, for a known combo set, back in the day when the book came out. I am going by the matching numbers and what it is.
BMUR... I own many Lettered Single Shots with the serial number located on the butts, not the front strap.
I have some Mexican Model Revolvers that letter as "Spur Trigger" and do not say "Mexican Model".
Engraved frame and barrel 1st Model that letters as a .32S&W and is a .22 caliber.
I guess buying, by my 1891 Revolver or Single Shot past, still makes me happy.
BMUR... I own many Lettered Single Shots with the serial number located on the butts, not the front strap.
I have some Mexican Model Revolvers that letter as "Spur Trigger" and do not say "Mexican Model".
Engraved frame and barrel 1st Model that letters as a .32S&W and is a .22 caliber.
I guess buying, by my 1891 Revolver or Single Shot past, still makes me happy.
Gassali,
I ran off about other things and forgot to add as to my value guess. If the screw driver set has all four bits inside, 2,000... if all the numbers match and the case is factory... these things will help the value.
I ran off about other things and forgot to add as to my value guess. If the screw driver set has all four bits inside, 2,000... if all the numbers match and the case is factory... these things will help the value.
Combo Sets
BMUR... I own many Lettered Single Shots with the serial number located on the butts, not the front strap.
You have “MANY” lettered single shots with serial numbers located on the butts.
I have no doubt but that you have. Are they all combo sets? I’m only quoting what has been published in several books for almost 60 years now.
The combo sets and their serial numbers have been public knowledge since at least 1966.
Ok, with an experienced collectors knowledge and an open mind the problem with published rare serial numbers is that folks that fabricate rare (valuable) stuff love this information.
It forces the experienced collector to take a step back and really look closely at the RARE item. Especially when parts at one time were VERY EASY TO FIND.
All the faker has to do is copy and paste a well known and published serial number. That’s what forced me into the study of die stamps.
I only own 1 Model 1 RARE 38 10” barrel and the serial number is where it’s suppose to be on the front grip strap. In my mind and my studies that’s extremely hard to fake. The serial number is also on the list.
Performing book research you come across duplicate serial numbers of Rare items where one turns out to be a fake but without a critical eye it looks genuine.
You even come across fakers by name that have the audacity enough to mark (sign) their fakes.
Murph
BMUR... I own many Lettered Single Shots with the serial number located on the butts, not the front strap.
You have “MANY” lettered single shots with serial numbers located on the butts.
I have no doubt but that you have. Are they all combo sets? I’m only quoting what has been published in several books for almost 60 years now.
The combo sets and their serial numbers have been public knowledge since at least 1966.
Ok, with an experienced collectors knowledge and an open mind the problem with published rare serial numbers is that folks that fabricate rare (valuable) stuff love this information.
It forces the experienced collector to take a step back and really look closely at the RARE item. Especially when parts at one time were VERY EASY TO FIND.
All the faker has to do is copy and paste a well known and published serial number. That’s what forced me into the study of die stamps.
I only own 1 Model 1 RARE 38 10” barrel and the serial number is where it’s suppose to be on the front grip strap. In my mind and my studies that’s extremely hard to fake. The serial number is also on the list.
Performing book research you come across duplicate serial numbers of Rare items where one turns out to be a fake but without a critical eye it looks genuine.
You even come across fakers by name that have the audacity enough to mark (sign) their fakes.
Murph
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What the heck is a Model 1 RARE 38 10"? Once again, you will not accept any other opinions than your own. Your reasoning about fakes is approaching conspiracy theory status. First step is to get a letter of authenticity to see if there is any information available on that serial number. Second is to get clarification that there is or is not a serial number on the 22 barrel. The problem is that the OP may never come back??
The case is not faked by my observation, and actually showing what 130 years of aging would do to the chamois leather lining. That case just looks right in every respect when compared to other known sets and cases. I will state with confidence that Roy's book contains lots of errors, but it was the best he and Bob could do some 25 years before computer collaboration. Everything was determined by reviewing reams of documents, log books, contributions from collectors, and career knowledge. It remains the single best single source of pre-WWII S&Ws ever written. I will guarantee that the book does not cover every combination serial numbered sets made by the factory and may list a very few that turn out not to be combination sets. Around 100 were found, likely means there are not many more undocumented out there. Supica & Nahas have images of a few combination sets in their SCSW4 book with some additional details about combination sets.
The case is not faked by my observation, and actually showing what 130 years of aging would do to the chamois leather lining. That case just looks right in every respect when compared to other known sets and cases. I will state with confidence that Roy's book contains lots of errors, but it was the best he and Bob could do some 25 years before computer collaboration. Everything was determined by reviewing reams of documents, log books, contributions from collectors, and career knowledge. It remains the single best single source of pre-WWII S&Ws ever written. I will guarantee that the book does not cover every combination serial numbered sets made by the factory and may list a very few that turn out not to be combination sets. Around 100 were found, likely means there are not many more undocumented out there. Supica & Nahas have images of a few combination sets in their SCSW4 book with some additional details about combination sets.
