Identify an old revolver

[jrdc]

Hi, folks!

First, I wanr to apologize for my english. Being spaniard, it's hard to me to use correctly your language.

A friend of mine has been offered what seems to be a S&W Russian comerial, as it can be read in barrel's top.

Per the backstrap without the knuckle, it looks a first model.

But there's some features that are not acknowledged in SCSW:

Caliber: there's no factory caliber marks in the barrel. It's been marked 38 S&W by the spanish proof house.
Rear sight: look like target sights, or regulable ones.
Front sight. It's not pinned, but mounted on a square block, fixed with a screw.
Barrel lenght: its 178mm, 7". looks like it's been chopped off to fit an extension with the weird front sight.
Serial number: in the 66XXX range, and placed under the barrel, near the hinge. I have no pictures of the butt, so i can't tell if there is a stamped serial number.

With all this in mind, has my friend been offered an unusual kind of Russian model, or may we count is an Euskaro copy with a nice fake barrel marking?

Thanks in advance for any info or opinion you can share.

Jordi

 

[jrdc]

More pictures

 

[BMur]

More photos

Can you post good clear photos of the face of the cylinder and also the muzzle/ rifling?
Let's establish a baseline first to make sure it hasn't been caliber altered.

I'm seeing what looks like sleeves in the cylinder. Also that visible line towards the end of the barrel supports that the barrel was relined as well. My guess is this gun was caliber altered.

The oval with crown over it stamped on the cylinder is a Belgian black powder proof mark.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Welcome to The Group!

That is a #3 (not a New Model #3) originally in .44 S&W Russian.
Sometimes referred to as OOM (meaning Old, Old Model). This is
the same as the first model Russian contract models except those
have the barrel markings stamped in Cyrillic with a Russian eagle
at the end.

The markings on the side are not factory and stamped after the
revolver left the Factory. I have seen markings like these on ones
that went to Canada. I don't know those proof marks on the barrel
but were probably done when the gun was imported and proof
tested and the caliber added as per import country regulations.

The front sight is unique and probably not done at the Factory but
getting a Factory Historical Letter should list any special order
features.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[jrdc]

Hi!

I've done a little homework.

The markings are spanish. The cross under the helm is the spanish BOPE proof marking. The E under the bomb is a marking for non-spanish guns. And P*2 is the year of stampiing code. In this case, 1997.

So I guess you are both right: an original S&W model 3 american or Russian 1st model that has been rebarreled in 1997, and as per spanish regulations reproofed and restamped with caliber and proof markings.

In the SCSW there's a statement about Russian 1st model comercials with barrel markings in latin caracters.

Thank you very much

 

[Jim Watson]

Looks like the butt has been rounded off similar to a New Model.
Is the hammer spur right?
Not the usual adjustable rear sight.

It would be interesting to see the muzzle and chambers to see how the caliber conversion was done.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

If not S&W it's the nicest foreign copy I've ever seen. I was convinced at first it was a 2nd Model Russian with the grip hump and trigger spur removed. And the barrel shortened with new front sight. Usually Spanish or Belgium copies are out of proportion in the grip and frame areas.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Looks like the butt has been rounded off similar to a New Model.
Is the hammer spur right?

No. The hammer spur looks more like the Schofield hammer but
not exactly. The top of the hammer was ground down to remove
the hammer/barrel latch interlock safety. This was probably done
so it would work with the new/modified rear sight.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[glowe]

Where to start? First, welcome to the Forum. The revolver is certainly a Smith & Wesson, but not an Old Old Model 3 since that serial number range was 1 - 20,000 and another Russian contract that ran in the 44 American serial number range of 6,0000 - 32,800. Your serial number is 66,916 so falls into the Model 3 Russian Second Model, or Old Model 3 Russian.

In the 1870s, the Russian government purchased over 100,000 revolvers in three different model lines. Your revolver would have left the factory with a 7" barrel and a long ejector housing as you show. I believe the front sight was an attempt to add a new sight for more accurate shooting. I would try to remove the fixture if it is not soldered on and see if there is a narrow slot in the top. If so, a front sight could be fashioned and installed to look original. There was also likely a hook on the bottom of the revolver's trigger guard that was removed. The "Russian Model" stamp means that revolver was sold as a commercial gun and was not part of the Russian contract.

I believe that what sits on the top of the "E" in the oval is a crown, not a bomb. I have never seen a Belgium stamp with just the E in the oval, as all had an ELG, meaning "Epreuve de Liege" or Proof of Liege. There was a stamp used on French guns that was a crown over an "E", but without the oval?? Also, Epreuve is a French word meaning proof, so maybe French??

Here is what the revolver would have looked like when it left the factory.

 

[glowe]

Let me add the three models of 44 Russians that were manufactured to compare the three models.

 

[iby]

I have not seen a serial # in that location before.
This gun has been seriously altered

 

[BMur]

Put together

So in 1997 this gun was basically "put together" with various parts and sleeved to 38 S&W. The barrel cut and inserted with a 38 cal rifled insert.
This kind of caliber alteration I will never personally understand. Significant amount of work and effort but honestly, what exactly did you gain here?

Wouldn't it have been a much better idea to restore it to original configuration? Original caliber? I will never understand why folks spend time doing this kind of alteration.

Sort of like putting a V8 in a Volkswagen. WHY?


Murph

 

[iby]

in this case a Volkswagen in a v8

 

[Jim Watson]

Probably done long ago in a country far away where it was just an obscure old gun in a scarce caliber, not yet having reached Significant Historical Artifact and Valuable Collectors Item status.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


This is NOT a New Model #3. If one looks at the bottom strap under
the cylinder, one will see the knurled surface of the extractor gear
catch. That catch was used ONLY on #3's PRIOR to the New Model.
The number (serial?) stamped on the extractor housing is too high
for a 1st or 2nd model American but we don't know if that is the
serial number or not.

The legend stamped on the barrel is the correct English stamping
for a domestically sold OOM. The "Russian Model" stamp at the
end wasn't used on the NM#3.

The grip has certainly been modified and does look like the NM#3
but it isn't one. Another tell-tail are the two arrows on the extractor
gear and barrel. This was done very late in the series in an attempt
to help prevent re-assembly mistakes.

It would be nice to see the butt of the grip for evidence of the
original serial number.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[jrdc]

Hi!

We'll try to take pictures of the butt, cilinder and barrel/muzzle/rifling. tuesday or wednesday, so we can see what and how it's been altered and find about an original SN stamped.
The proof marks are spanish proof house (BOPE) . No doubt about it.

We are trying to identify this gun because, by spanish laws, if it is a before 1890 gun, my friend could get it as curio/relic, wich means lesser requirements to own and license it. Or may I say her? ;-)

Even if it results a Frankenstein Russian altered in 1997, this could be an interesting thread. In Spain gunsmiths/FFL holders are endangered species, and those with konwledge of SA S&W or its copies are scarcer.

Salut!
Jordi

 

[BMur]

Machine work

Jordi,
It's definitely interesting. I'd really like to see the work done to the cylinder. The photo's you posted just aren't clear enough to determine what exactly was done here.

The photo of the front of the barrel definitely shows machine work with the line that "suggests" an insert. I also can't tell for sure that the cylinder has been sleeved to alter from a 44 Russian to a 38 S&W. Likely the 38 Special if it was done in 1997. Could that 97 mean 1897? If so it could be a 38 S&W.

Really need some good close ups of the cylinder both front and back.

I just looked closely at the grip frame and it also looks like that grip frame was welded/altered as well. That sure didn't happen in 1897. So this is a modern alteration. It must be a 38 Special.

Murph

 

[gunbarrel]

Interesting! Since we are talking about Spain and the S&W Russian Model, I thought I'd post a picture of my Spanish copy made in Eibar "without privilege" by the Orbea Bros.

 

[gunbarrel]

BTW, a lot of collectors are not aware of this US patent filed by a Spanish inventor. It appears that Smith and Wesson was not interested on the improvement--perhaps because Major Schofield's model was already in the works?

 

[gunbarrel]

Let's see if these two pages are more readable...

They are not.

You can look up US Patent US202915

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Unfortunately, your pics are too low in resolution to enlarge and
read so I do not know what improvement the Spanish patented.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[gunbarrel]

Webb, I just edited my post. Look up US Patent US202915 using Google patents search.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


It took a while to figure out the USPTO search and putting the
patent number into a format it can use.

The patent covers an automatic ejection system that used some
of the gas pressure generated in firing to expel a cartridge from
the cylinder. The U.S. Army experimented with this idea but no-
thing ever came of it. S&W didn't participate in those experiments
and by the date of this patent, S&W wasn't interested in making
any more Schofields. They had already turn down the Army's request
for more Schofields twice! They were focused on their New Model
No. 3.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[jrdc]

Hi!

Jordi,
It's definitely interesting. I'd really like to see the work done to the cylinder. The photo's you posted just aren't clear enough to determine what exactly was done here.

The photo of the front of the barrel definitely shows machine work with the line that "suggests" an insert. I also can't tell for sure that the cylinder has been sleeved to alter from a 44 Russian to a 38 S&W. Likely the 38 Special if it was done in 1997. Could that 97 mean 1897? If so it could be a 38 S&W.

Really need some good close ups of the cylinder both front and back.

I just looked closely at the grip frame and it also looks like that grip frame was welded/altered as well. That sure didn't happen in 1897. So this is a modern alteration. It must be a 38 Special.

Murph

The 1997 year comes from the P*2 proof house markings. But the caliber may be - and I think it is - a real 38 S&W. In the very late 1800s and early 1900s 38 S&W was declared official caliber for revolvers in the spanish army, because of its advantages against lefacheux cartridges. . Whoever did, or asked for, this modification intented to use a "period correct" caliber.

And we can never set aside that this work could have been done 100 years ago, and only proofed in 1997 because of any of the silly regulations implemented by our own ATF, the Intervencion Central de Armas y Explosivos"

I'll post the missing pictures when I can get them.

Salut!
Jordi

 

[gunbarrel]

See Schofield's patent No. USRE8354 re-issued 6 mo. after Ybarra's. Interesting!

HiThe patent covers an automatic ejection system that used some
of the gas pressure generated in firing to expel a cartridge from
the cylinder. The U.S. Army experimented with this idea but no-
thing ever came of it. S&W didn't participate in those experiments
and by the date of this patent, S&W wasn't interested in making
any more Schofields. They had already turn down the Army's request
for more Schofields twice! They were focused on their New Model
No. 3.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


It is my opinion that Smith and Wesson had no interest in this
system of ejection. Their top break system with simultaneous
extraction made gas or recoil induced ejection more or less moot.
The Single Action Army, on the other hand was slow to eject and
load. This is why the Army was interested while the 1873 SAA
was the standard sidearm of the Cavalry. When the 1892 Colt
DA with side swing cylinder and simultaneous extraction was
adopted, the interest in gas ejection evaporated.

The one of the problems with this ejection system is differentiating
between a live round and a spent one. Some claim that their in-
vention addresses this situation but U.S. Government test showed
that this wasn't always reliable.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wibols]

Hello, I am jrdc's friend who is trying to identify the revolver.
A second examination of the weapon reveals that it is an original 44 revolver converted to a 38

 

[wibols]

more pics of the revolver

 

[wibols]

more pics of the revolver III

 

[wibols]

more pics of the revolver IV