IDPA

[ScottJ]

I like this idea! A 158gr load makes the 165K power floor at 1044 fps.

I have some cast 158s that go 1120 out of my 4" N frame but still feel relatively mild. In fact I shot some on a stage in SSR when I ran low of my usual loading (I grabbed the wrong box heading out of the house).

I see no chance of 8 shot revolvers being allowed in IDPA SSR where they would obsolete so many conventional sixshooters. If you want to shoot one, campaign HQ to let you use it versus the 1911 and other .45 autos in CDP. Major power factor ammo, of course.
I'd let you do it in club shoots here, just to see it happen.

 

[dwever]

I agree. One of the underlying principals of IDPA is to avoid equipment races. If 8-shot revolvers were allowed in SSR or ESR, they would have a significant advantage over 6-shot revolvers, and shooters would need to get an 8-shot revolver to be competitive.

An equipment race and accommodation for increasingly adopted popular design are perhaps two different things.

Interesting to note that every .38/.357 revolver offered by S&W Performance Center is an 8 Shot.

 

[M1911-66]

The percentage of revolver sales that are 8-shot is tiny. The percentage of revolvers that are already owned that are 8-shot is even smaller.

 

[gr7070]

Buds Guns just sent an email of their top 15 selling guns. All but two of them were under $400. The top 4 were under $300 and the 5th was under $350 and only one was even $700 (an AR).

In addition, 12 were auto handguns the other three were rifles.

People aren't buying expensive PC guns. And if they are they're likely not revolvers either.

 

[dwever]

Well, I can't imagine a for-profit company offering such a diverse line of weapons over a period of years unless it was profitable for them - the .357 8 shot comes in six different PC versions alone with no 7 or 6 shots offered at all.

At any rate, don't want to pick an argument here. When I originally purchased a Performance Center weapon, I only knew Glock's and 1911's at the time. I had only heard of IDPA or USPSA, didn't know anything about competitive shooting outside the military, and didn't understand the S&W line-up of weapons, I was just taken by the balance, action, and accuracy, and purchased the 627 with 5" barrel; and subsequently a Melonite version of their 1911, a Gun Site Edition 1911 (not PC), and then this 627 with the shorter barrel.

I am fine abiding by, affirming, and not whining about competition policies. I understand I can compete in the Production Division of USPSA with this weapon, and I look forward to doing so again. Thanks

 

[M1911-66]

Well, I can't imagine a for-profit company offering such a diverse line of weapons over a period of years unless it was profitable for them - the .357 8 shot comes in six different PC versions alone with no 7 or 6 shots offered at all.

Huh?

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that the 7 and 8 shot revolvers are not profitable for S&W. I'm sure they are.

But that doesn't change the fact that they aren't sold in large quantities.

 

[smithman 10]

Until the rules change, my thoughts are simple. If a person isn't shooting their every day carry gun at an IDPA event, they're cheating their self and nothing more.

Murphy2000

I agree 100%. Unless you shoot a gun you carry IDPA is just another gun game. Fun, but not particularly useful.

I try to make myself use a snubnose K-frame in IDPA, although the tempation is always there to use a 4" barrel revolver to improve the score. I look forward to the BUG matches where I can use the revolver I carry 9 out of every 10 days - a Model 60 with a bobbed hammer.

 

[dwever]

You have used the words, "tiny", "even smaller", "large quantities" and "fact" without a single number or actual percentage. Again, no argument here, it is just that respectfully those words only have meaning attached to actual data. Love to see the S&W sales numbers these statements reflect.

Over simplified, a profitability model means you have adequate profit margins and numbers of sales to cover research, development, production, distribution, and marketing expenses. I hope that it is reasonable to assume that S&W's "premium" line of weapons, that S&W dedicates, "the best of the best" of their gunsmiths to according to their website, is moving some serious product to offset their corporate commitments to this line. Of course the numbers we are looking for is, what is the percentage of say, Performance Center .357 revolver sales against all S&W .357 Revolver sales? Is it a "tiny" percentage, or a surprising chunk? And regardless of percentage, how many thousand units have been manufactured?

Anyway, this is my last post on this thread. Respectfully and peacefully submitted.

 

[tomcatt51]

If a person isn't shooting their every day carry gun at an IDPA event, they're cheating their self and nothing more.

I have to grin every time I hear this because it's almost always said by someone who NEVER actually practices with their "carry gun" but thinks a "match" is practice. I put on a series of "PPC" matches over the winter for our local club and hear this regularly. People show up to "practice" (in a match) with a gun you never (or rarely) see them shoot on a practice night. Understandable considering most "carry guns" are not fun to shoot unless you (re)load really light loads. Matches are games, pure and simple. To me anyway they're a way to gauge if our practice (seperate thing) is actually improving our performance. My 2 cents.

 

[gr7070]

I agree 100%. Unless you shoot a gun you carry IDPA is just another gun game. Fun, but not particularly useful.

Understand that's all it is to many. There are many who carry and still see IDPA that way. There are certainly some who see it is practice for the real world. There are even plenty who see it as a detriment to their carry skills, even if they compete like they carry.

One thing everyone knows that IDPA is: a game. It might be that and more to some. However, it is absolutely a game/sport. That's why they keep score and announce winners.

The great thing is it can be whatever you want it to be, within IDPA's context at least.

 

[smithman 10]

I have to grin every time I hear this because it's almost always said by someone who NEVER actually practices with their "carry gun" but thinks a "match" is practice. I put on a series of "PPC" matches over the winter for our local club and hear this regularly. People show up to "practice" (in a match) with a gun you never (or rarely) see them shoot on a practice night. Understandable considering most "carry guns" are not fun to shoot unless you (re)load really light loads. Matches are games, pure and simple. To me anyway they're a way to gauge if our practice (seperate thing) is actually improving our performance. My 2 cents.

Practice at least once a month, frequently more often with my carry gun, thank you. Dry fire it a bit now and then also.

As I understand it, IDPA was invented expressly for the purpose of providing a way for the new wave of concealed carry permit holders to shoot their carry guns. My observation is that many IDPA shooters I know carry a J-frame - but in IDPA they shoot a Glock or an M&P these days. You are right - it's purely a game now.

But that wasn't the original intention of IDPA, if I remember correctly.

 

[gr7070]

I am fine abiding by, affirming, and not whining about competition policies. I understand I can compete in the Production Division of USPSA with this weapon, and I look forward to doing so again. Thanks

Personally, I didn't read the whining into Dwever's previous posts.

Dwever, look up Steel Challenge, too, and see if you can find a local match it's a ton of fun. It's largely the reason I bought my 627, that and to play USPSA once in a very great while with it.

Feel free to load it to six and give IDPA a try. All these games are a blast, and if you find you like IDPA buy yourself a 686 to continue with 38s or a 625 if you want to continue to use moonclips in your revolver games.

Enjoy!

 

[gr7070]

You are right - it's purely a game now.

But that wasn't the original intention of IDPA, if I remember correctly.

IDPA was founded to be a "sport" (game) from the very beginning. They do have specific intent for the equipment to be "practical" and for the game to "SIMULATE real life encounters".

This is from their own literature. It's a game, according to IDPA, always has been. What it is to each of us may differ some, but it was founded as a game - a game with an intended bent, but still a game.

 

[smithman 10]

Game/Sport/Training = Semantics

Of course any event with a bunch of civilians, trained or untrained, shooting their handguns is a game.

But, and I haven't bothered to go back and read any of the original literature, a great deal of the original appeal of IDPA, again if I remember correctly, was that it was promoted as a way for shooters to compete with guns they owned and to avoid equipment races.

So you could drag out your 2" Model 10 that you carried for self defense or kept in the house and see what you could do with it.

Now you have folks buying special IDPA revolvers from Smith and Wesson, doing trigger jobs on revolvers and pistols to lighten them to the point that they are only range guns.

I guess everyone uses IDPA for their own purposes. For my purposes, I'll use it as a way to put a little stress on the shooter (myself) while using guns I actually might have to use in self defense someday, God forbid!

Otherwise, I'm just not interested in it anymore.

 

[tomcatt51]

So you could drag out your 2" Model 10 that you carried for self defense or kept in the house and see what you could do with it.

As you can in USPSA or ICORE or Steel Challenge etc.

 

[gr7070]

FWIW IDPA has actually *shortened* the allowable barrel length for revolver division to 4.25". So not all changes are going one way.

While I am one who does believe the equipment has a fair amount of influence on the results, I believe one can still be reasonably competitive with stock and even compact equipment.

It still appears that there is plenty in IDPA for all enthusiasts to enjoy and benefit from, game- or carry-centric folks alike.

 

[dwever]

Regarding the sub-thread on "game"

Some or most of the LEO's here, like me, have been certified in active shooter school as well as other training.

The biggest difference for me between IDPA or USPSA and training for an active shooter situation is that rather than knowing a pre-determined course of fire and being able to pre-memorize it; in training, you have no idea what the scenario, conditions, or anything else is going to be, AND people are shooting back (in our case modified Glocks that shoot rubber bullets that really hurt and can make you bleed). The situation emerges, they create chaos, make you discern and it is sobering. Once the scenarios are run, the instructors play back the videos, and you find out a hundred better way you could of done it. My son in the military has had that too.

Having said that, do I look to competition to sharpen my skills? You bet I do. But there are limitations, perhaps most of all the mind set you need in a gun fight is not well served in competition, even with the guys who take it way too seriously.

There is good civilian force on force training available such as Gun Site in AZ. I attended Shoot Rite which is endorsed by Thunder Ranch. It's hard to compose on an iPhone during a lunch at Carraba's so give me grace guys.

 

[M1911-66]

So you could drag out your 2" Model 10 that you carried for self defense or kept in the house and see what you could do with it.

You can do that today in IDPA. Feel free to bring your snubbie and compete.

Now you have folks buying special IDPA revolvers from Smith and Wesson, doing trigger jobs on revolvers and pistols to lighten them to the point that they are only range guns.

One of the best shooters that I compete with is Federal Air Marshal. He uses his duty gun. And he's freakin' awesome with it, smoking almost everyone else -- and we're talking reasonably sized matches with ~60+ competitors.

It's the indian, not the arrow.

 

[Jim Watson]

...many IDPA shooters I know carry a J-frame - but in IDPA they shoot a Glock or an M&P these days.

Yeah, me, too; or even a .32 or .380.
But you will find little scope in IDPA for a real belly gun or pocket pistol.
The rules are written around what might better be called service pistols. The ORIGINAL rules from 1996 (I have been a member since 1997.)

 

[gr7070]

It's the indian, not the arrow.

No. It's both.

However, the shooter is, without question, the most important factor.