If a sniper has to see what he is

[Senior Citizen]

shooting at, how powerful of a scope would he have to have to shoot a 6" group at 1000 yards. I guess my point is that to shoot a group that small at such a distance, he must have a very small aiming point to hold on. Now, having said that, how small would it need to be and what magnification would he need. I have a 10X40X50 on one of my 243's and can shoot clay pidgeons easily at 500 yards. But the target dot really starts to cover small things up beyond that. I like to use the smallest targer I can when I'm shooting for groups. How big of a bullseye are they shooting at in these 1000 yard competitions?

It's frosty outside in NW FL this morning, so I'm waiting for it to warm up. Just looking for conversation.

SC

 

[Combat_Diver]

I've shot 1000yds with a iron sighted M14 NM and with a M24 with a 10x Leupold M3. Biggest challenge is calling the winds. As long as you conduct all your fundementals and sight picture the same, maginification is less of a factor in my opinion.

CD

 

[Andy Griffith]

I always thought most those fellers- before technology got to where it is now- used 10x Leupolds.

 

[cmort666]

I've shot 1000yds with a iron sighted M14 NM and with a M24 with a 10x Leupold M3. Biggest challenge is calling the winds. As long as you conduct all your fundementals and sight picture the same, maginification is less of a factor in my opinion.

CD

I've shot 1,000 yard with:
An iron sighted M1.
An iron sighted M1917
An iron sighted faux M1903 (long story, it was a piece of crap).
A scoped Remington 40X.

I've got a Savage 10FP and a 112BVSS, both of them set up for 1,000 yard, although I've never shot either past 600.

 

[Rule3]

In today's news:

New rifles give Army snipers in Afghanistan needed range - USATODAY.com

 

[moonclip]

SC, I believe the 1000 yd target is 6' across, the black bullseye portion of the target is five' across. The X-ring is 5", and the ten-ring is 10".
Then of course you'll need wind flags the size of a Volkswagon.

......moon

 

[H Richard]

I believe the key is the size of the target at 6'. As long as you can get a proper sight picture (and hold it) and of course allow for the wind, the magnification is not that much a factor. Now take a brown 10" tall Prairie Dog sitting on a brown hill among brown grass at 500 yards and magnification does become a factor. Some people are blessed with better eyesight, and as I age it seems to deteriorate. I'm up to a 18 to 20 power scope to see that 500 yard dog good enough to hit him.

 

[Senior Citizen]

I believe the key is the size of the target at 6'. As long as you can get a proper sight picture (and hold it) and of course allow for the wind, the magnification is not that much a factor. Now take a brown 10" tall Prairie Dog sitting on a brown hill among brown grass at 500 yards and magnification does become a factor. Some people are blessed with better eyesight, and as I age it seems to deteriorate. I'm up to a 18 to 20 power scope to see that 500 yard dog good enough to hit him.

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Sight picture is my point. If you don't have something small to aim at, then you must be guessing at what your sight picture is. I guess what I'm saying is that if you can't see the X then you are doing you best to cut the 60" black ring into perfect quarters with the cross hairs. That seems like a lot of guess work to me compared to say putting the cross hairs on a 6" orange circle "INSIDE" that 60" back dot.

 

[Ron H.]

XXXXXXXXXXXX

Sight picture is my point. If you don't have something small to aim at, then you must be guessing at what your sight picture is. I guess what I'm saying is that if you can't see the X then you are doing you best to cut the 60" black ring into perfect quarters with the cross hairs. That seems like a lot of guess work to me compared to say putting the cross hairs on a 6" orange circle "INSIDE" that 60" back dot.

Sir, it's a lot easier to hit the center of a big aiming point that you can actually see than to hit any part of a tiny aiming point that you can't. You don't have to be able to distinguish the X ring itself as long as you know it's in the center of the larger aiming point. High power competitors prove this pretty much every weekend.

In a modern sniper scenario, the shooter typically has at least one spotter working with him and telling him where the "X ring" is within a larger visible aiming point. For example, "Yellow building, third floor, far left window, bottom right corner." Even if the shooter can't see that particular X ring, he can see the larger aiming point and put a bullet in the center of it. I suppose that's a form of guesswork, but highly informed guesswork, and it does in fact work quite well.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[310nightguard]

"The added distance is important because insurgents have been shooting down from ridges and mountaintops where gravity helps their bullets travel farther and beyond the range of Army snipers."

Not a ballistic expert writing the article apparently.

 

[snake charmer]

SC, I believe the 1000 yd target is 6' across, the black bullseye portion of the target is five' across. The X-ring is 5", and the ten-ring is 10".
Then of course you'll need wind flags the size of a Volkswagon.

......moon

This is correct for the F class target, standard target is a 10" X ring with a 20" 10 ring.

 

[Senior Citizen]

Okay...........then let me add a question about backstops. For me to shoot 500-700 yards I have to put my target right on the corner fence line between my property and the neighbors. There is a 3 strand barbed wire fence seperating the two properties. Well, Ive shot all three stands in half several times. I always repair the fence, but it's starting to look like a "repaired fence" now.

I use a 24"36" by 1/4" sheet of steel set at 45 degrees as a back stop for my pistol targets and they have done a great job for over 12 years on stuff up to heavy loaded 357s and heavy 44's. I think one even did okay on some light 30-30's. But they are no match for a hot 243 or 270WSM, even at 300 yards.

What thickness to I need to get to stop these bullets at 200 yards and further? I want to be able to move the backstop when we burn and bushhog and disc up firelines. I can build the backstop frame and put wheels on it. From what Ive calculated, a 24"X48" by 3/4" plate weighs around 280 pounds. That's just the plate. Add another 40+ for a good metal frame or 2X6 pressure treated wood frame.

Any viable suggestions?

thanks in advance

SC

 

[Sully]

When shooting at TARGETS...you shoot for "center mass" of the "big dot"...NOT at some aiming point thats only 5-6 inches in diameter. You cant see something that size at 1000 YARDS with any spotting scope you can actually carry.

The actual HITS are marked ( and if you notice with a color opposite the area of the background....white on hit in the black..and vice-a-versa).

A scope with a dot reticle that only covered 1 minute of angle ( = 1 inch at 100 yds) covers 10 inches at 1000 yards. Totally covering up say a 5-6 inch bullseye

 

[Senior Citizen]

When shooting at TARGETS...you shoot for "center mass" of the "big dot"...NOT at some aiming point thats only 5-6 inches in diameter. You cant see something that size at 1000 YARDS with any spotting scope you can actually carry.

The actual HITS are marked ( and if you notice with a color opposite the area of the background....white on hit in the black..and vice-a-versa).

A scope with a dot reticle that only covered 1 minute of angle ( = 1 inch at 100 yds) covers 10 inches at 1000 yards. Totally covering up say a 5-6 inch bullseye

XXXXXXXXXXXX

okay, so then lets take the example given above about the yellow building on the left, third floor, last window on the left, bottom right corner is the "X-ring". Bang, dead target.

What if you have no such reference points at that? What if all you have is a snipers head slightly showing above a hole in the ground. What if you don't have that 60" circle to shoot center mass at? Again, what if your only reference is a 10" rectangular head to shoot at. At a 1000 yards what is your sight picture going to look like? Or do yo even have a sight picture at that range? Would a fine cross hair with mil dots do it? What magnification would you need to be able to determine if the cross hairs were actually center mass of the 10" head? So if you are shooting at a 10" target, and that is all you have to refrence, what kind of scope would you need? No 60" black dot to aim at. Just a 10" pie pan hanging from a monofilament line.

 

[Combat_Diver]

SC,

As far as your backstop is concerned, depends on the type of steel. Mild steel will need to be thick which will be real heavy. Harden R500 will only need to be about 3/8" but that comes at a price in increased cost. Couple other solutions would be stack tires with sand inside or a log wall (used railroad ties) with the steel behind it.

CD

 

[kraigwy]

I don't think its the scope power, or the scope at all, I think its totally the shooter. I don't think its fancy rifles, I think its the shooter.

Lets look at a couple cases in point:

Army Research Labortory, Sniper Weapon Control Error Budget Analysis, 1999 Report:

Baseline: 600 Yards Knight SSW SR25, Ammo M118LR. Two man sniper team, using rifle, spotting scope and laser range finder.

Probability of Hitting an E-Silhouette Target (19X40) 600 yards = 27%.

vs: CMP Western Games, Vintage Sniper Rifle Test Match, using pre-1954 Sniper rifles & scopes. 300 & 600 yards. Two man team, each shooter fires 15 rounds at 300 & 600 yards. Target is the NRA MR1 600 yard target. Throw out the 300 yards and only count hits in the X-10-9 Ring (18 inch in diameter). Even taking into account the E-silhouette is 40 inches high, and the MR1's example is 18 inches high. The hit ratio is a heck of a lot higher with the Vintage Rifle Matches.

Now go check the scores of a ITT (Infrantry Trophy Match or Rattle Battle. Starting at 600 yard the teams have 50 seconds to engage an E-Silhouette target with Iron Sights. Again the hits exceed the 27% hit ratio.

My point is, don't get hung up on the need for high priced, fancy equipment. You don't need glass for shooting 600 or 1000 yards, you need fundamentals and rounds down range.

On gun forums you see all kinds of reports and pictures of sub min. groups posted. Yet you go to a match, you find few cleaned targets at 600 & 1000 yards. (The X-10 ring is about 2 MOA).

 

[Dennis The B]

A lot of target scopes...

...have 1/8 moa dots. That translates to 1.3" target coverage at 1000 yards (1.04"x10/8), more than adequate to see the entire bullseye at that distance. Assuming your elevation is spot on, you should be able to make fairly accurate windage adjustments without actually adjusting your scope.

The axiom "aim small, miss small" really comes into play.

 

[CW Spook]

Isn't it great that USA Today can state that the new rifle can hit a target at 3937 ft. I suppose that means they'll miss it at 3938.....

 

[Senior Citizen]

SC,

As far as your backstop is concerned, depends on the type of steel. Mild steel will need to be thick which will be real heavy. Harden R500 will only need to be about 3/8" but that comes at a price in increased cost. Couple other solutions would be stack tires with sand inside or a log wall (used railroad ties) with the steel behind it.

CD

XXXXXXXXX

tries, sand piles, old railroad ties aren't an option. I'm shooting down a road that runs down our property line. It's only about 15' wide. It is the only place I can shoot over 400 yards with a clear view. The target has to me moveable and not so big as to impede my father's old truck or his tractor. It is my property, but he still has right of survivorship so I don't argue with him too much about what he wants to do or what I do. I had a nice 10' shooting house in that corner for about 6 years. it was about 3' inside the fence on my property. Neighbor wanted to clean the fence line a little and put up new posts and string new wire. My dad called me and said my shooting house was in the way of the guys putting up the fence and I needed to come move it for a couple of days. Okay, so I took my brothers old forklift and moved it into the middle of the road. WRONG! now he can't make his "rounds" about 3 times a day to see if any pine cones have fallen in the road and I need to come pick up! Wound up moving it about 450 yrds into a clearing and leaving it for 2 months. Then I move it back, of course he was there to supervise this too!

But back to the back stop. I could build wooden frames high enouhg to shoot over the top strand or barbed wire, but then I would be shooting no telling how far on the neighbors property. That's never a good idea. So you see my limitations now. I'm thinking about $350 for a good 3/4" back stop on wheels.

 

[Ron H.]

XXXXXXXXXXXX

okay, so then lets take the example given above about the yellow building on the left, third floor, last window on the left, bottom right corner is the "X-ring". Bang, dead target.

What if you have no such reference points at that? What if all you have is a snipers head slightly showing above a hole in the ground. What if you don't have that 60" circle to shoot center mass at? Again, what if your only reference is a 10" rectangular head to shoot at. At a 1000 yards what is your sight picture going to look like? Or do yo even have a sight picture at that range? Would a fine cross hair with mil dots do it? What magnification would you need to be able to determine if the cross hairs were actually center mass of the 10" head? So if you are shooting at a 10" target, and that is all you have to refrence, what kind of scope would you need? No 60" black dot to aim at. Just a 10" pie pan hanging from a monofilament line.

Sir, I don't know what our snipers use now, but the old Marine Corps M40A1 had a fixed 10X Unertl scope. The reticle had additional stadia lines for holdover and windage, but I don't remember what the crosshairs themselves subtended.

Re the guy's head only at 1,000 yards, if the guy's not moving and you don't know he's there, you might not notice him at all when scanning the area, even with a high-powered spotting scope. If you do know he's out there and exactly where he is (say, he just fired at you and you saw the muzzle flash), you should still be able to get on him. If there's terrain enough for him to hide behind, there's terrain enough to get some sort of reference from.

If not, then call your friends to put machine gun, mortar fire, etc. in his general area to get him to move. Or move yourself to a better firing point. Or maybe you just don't get the guy at all. Not every story has a happy ending.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.