Im No Gunsmith

[BillBro]

But I didnt let that little deficiency deter me from forging ahead with my so called revolver improvement project, it being spring and all.

The candidate was my 4"686-5+.

This all started really last year while perusing youtube and finding a gunsmith, a real life "gunsmith" who made a 6 part series detailing an action and trigger job on a very similar gun, his was a 2.5" 686. Its a very detailed series with decent camera work. My plan was to sort mimic what this fella details in his video series.So over the past year or so Ive been gathering tools and supplies and parts. Brownells and Power Custom got a decent amount of my money.

I began with complete disassembly and a good cleaning, then a thorough inspection, found drag marks here and there on the hammer and trigger wher they were contacting the frame during operation but nothing uncommon. Checked alignment of the yoke/crane, all good there. Used a yoke/crane reamer and removed some pretty viscous burrs inside the barrel of the yoke tube. That alone should be an improvement.

I then completely disassembled the cylinder and put it in the vice, got out the dykem and coated the face. I set up my 45degree reamer and lightly broke the corner of each chamber. After cleaning it all up I honed each chamber with the fine flex-hone. Cylinder recleaned and reassembled and looking good and spinning smooth.

Next the scary part. Out come the fine Cratex bits and the Dremel!!! I started with the trigger, just smoothing out any contact points in a very judicious manner. Next the hammer then on to the rebound block which probably got the most attention along with the area of the frame it resides and moves in. I started with the cratex but then used small,square 15k and 20k waterstones to give it and the frame area a glass like smoothness. Then I took a q-tip and halved it, dipped it in some Flitz and honed the inside of the rebound block just to smooth out any interaction with the spring.

I hit the hand in just a few stratigic spots very lightly and avoiding the business area of it. Then on to the cylinder release bar (lost but thankfully found the microscopic spring) . Not having much to do with the action or trigger but the hammer does ride right over it so it got a light smoothing.

Now for the most nerve wracking part, I get out my new Power Custom sear stoning jig and the stones. I had already set it up and familiarized myself with it and set the proper angle for the S&W adapter. Put some dykem on the sear and gave a few tentative strokes back and forth and checked my angle, I decided I needed a very slight adjustment of the adapter and gave it another brush of dykem and repeated the proces and it looked, through my extra powerful magnifying glass, to match the factory angle pretty spot on so I continued. The two stones I got were both fine, one a fine India and one a fine ceramic, I was using the ceramic and Im here to tell you, it is indees fine. Im pretty familiar with ceramic type waterstones and I would guess its grit rating at around 12k to 15k. I switched to the India for a moment and while it says fine it is far and away more coarse than the black ceramic stone and in about 5 strokes it evened the sear completely, so I set it aside and did the remaining work with the ceramic stone. And, after about 15 minutes and many strokes, checking about every 10 or so, I was presented with a sear with what is literally a mirror finish and a crisp sharp edge. Naturally I was using only very, very light even pressure. I grabbed a super fine dental pick to see if I could detect a burr one the underside of the edge, indicating that I actually shortened the sear, I could not feel any evidence of that.

Finally done I proceeded to clean everything up and reassemble the gun. I dont usually use oil on the inside of a revolver except maybe a drop or two on the ejector rod and where the yoke/crane fit in the frame but in this instance I used a few dabs of ALG 0000 Very Thin Grease on both sears and a drop on the underside of the rebound block. I also installed a new spring kit and used the 14lb rebound spring.

Upon completing reassembly the first thing I did was a functions check and it worked the way it should. Cocked the hammer and gently pushed on the hammer and it stayed put. What a relief, no push-off. So I began cycling the action and wow, what a great feeling gun! I am mot a boastful person but this thing turned out amazing! The trigger break is literally like the proverbial glass rod. I couldnt believe I made such an overall improvement. The entire cycle function is jist glass smooth and I will put this one up for comparison against my 627 PC gun anytime. It may actually feel better. I really need a trigger pull gauge to check these things. I dont think the 686 trigger is quite as light as my 627 but its every bit as smooth and the break is jist soooooo clean. I dont know how in the world they got the trigger of that 627 that light, and yes the strain screw is tightened down all the way, on all of my revolvers.

Sorry but I was so nervous and tentative going into this I took no pics but I did want to detail my experience. I hope yall enjoy my story of triumph.

 

[mikerjf]

Congrats, sounds like a fine job!

Sometimes the difference between a pro and a novice is that the pro won't spend the time to get it perfect.

A tile guy walked into my kitchen, looked at the floor, and immediately said "You did this yourself, didn't you?"

I was a little crestfallen and asked where I'd screwed up. He said "This is an L-shaped room and you have a full uncut tile at each threshold. A pro would never have bothered to do that." Made me feel a lot better!

Enjoy the fruits of your labor!

 

[BillBro]

Thank you sir, I will enjoy it. I like your story too. When youre not operating on a deadline or you have some skin in the game you do tend to do the best you can.

A number of years ago I had serious reservations about making boatbuilding my profession because I enjoyed it too much. Understand what I mean?

I do believe I did the very best I could with this 686, the change really is that dramatic. The way Im looking at it is this, I jist paid for the Power Custom stoning fixture.

 

[Pisgah]

I'm just happy the story didn't end, "Like I said, I'm no gunsmith."

 

[Sevens]

I found the detail of your writing also to be a telltale of how you went about the work. Extremely interesting read and I love a happy ending!

On the subject of S&W revolver and professional custom trigger work, I find myself in a somewhat unique position. -NO- haha I have not and cannot do what you have detailed. But what I mean is that I’m fortunate in that I own a few full custom PPC guns and the double action trigger on these are, for lack of a better term, the ultimate. Or to be fair and honest, they are the ultimate in a double action revolver trigger that I’ve experienced in my life.

In the interest of full disclosure, these are without a doubt set up for Federal primers and that’s a genuine dividing line for many people and they wouldn’t own a gun that demands a certain primer.

All I’m saying is that I’m not a full-blown “trigger snob” but as much as anyone could be, BOY do I absolutely appreciate a phenomenal double action trigger.

And with the PPC guns that I own, I sure know a sublime DA trigger when I feel one.

This last “shot” might offend some, it’s not really my intention, but it’s on-topic. When some gush over a Python trigger, I have to laugh. I mean it’s noteworthy that a bone-stock revolver as shipped can and does impress, but a Python trigger doesn’t approach the Travis Strahan, Bill Davis or Power Custom PPC guns built on S&W K-frames. It isn’t night & day difference… it’s night and 2-1/2 weeks later.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I have to agree on the PPC gun actions. Most people will never know what a really good DA feels like. It's sad because most would really like it.

 

[BillBro]

One of those is gonna be my next project.��

 

[Bald1]

Love a good do it yourself story. Especially when it ends well. Nothing more satisfying than doing it yourself. Being outside your comfort zone makes it extra rewarding. Congrats on making a great gun even better

 

[Spurdann]

You are giving me confidence.
I have been stealing my self to attempt a lessor project, now I am just going to do it.

 

[BillBro]

So, do the old warnings about now stoning the trigger parts in S&W revolvers because they are only case hardened and you'll go right through to soft metal apply to a stainless 686?

Ah ha, but mine has the MIM trigger. Its a transitional model Ive heard some here say..

 

[Protocall_Design]

The case hardening is thick enough that a little stoning to smooth the surface won't bother anything. You would have to get pretty carried away to get through the case hardening. At that point the part is probably out of spec or ruined anyway.

 

[BillBro]

Thanks Protocall D for the confirmation, thats what I was thinking too. What? Its .005"? The case hardening I mean. I think I had seen that figure somewhere. Im sure it varies with, well, many variables but something in that range?

As it says in the thread title, I am no gunsmith but havent the real gunsmiths been doing action and trigger jobs on S&W revolvers for a few years now? I saw it on YouTube so it must be true.

 

[BillBro]

ProtocallDesign and/or Sevens, is it possible to describe exactly what it is about those PPC guns DA action that makes them so pleasurable to shoot? Or is it just one of those intangibles that must be felt to be believed? Im curious now.

I know that one late model Performance Center 627 I own has just about the sweetest action I have ever felt but my "felt" covers far fewer revolvers than many people here.
The DA and SA in that 627 is just absolutely spectacular and thats the way I got it. Its so so light and just silky smooth its almost scarey but I have never experienced a single light strike, not with any gactory ammo nor any of my reloads. Ive even loaded some with CCI400's before to see if they would ignite when I was a little low on SPP's, they did, every time. So that scarey light trigger isnt just the product of the lightest springs made.

 

[Protocall_Design]

What is a light trigger to one person might be a heavy trigger to another. It's all a matter of perspective. In order to have a meaningful discussion, we will have to quantify what we're talking about. In other words, take measurements and get numbers with a trigger pull gage. The SA pull can be made really good on any gun. It's the DA pull we're concerned with here. A super good DA pull has always been the "Holy Grail" of revolver smithing, as it's an elusive animal.

To someone who is used to the 12 - 14 lb. factory DA trigger pull, a 9 lb. pull is amazing. To someone used to a 7 lb. DA pull, 9 lb. is undesirable. The trigger pull is actually not just a static number, it changes from beginning to end. The normal trigger pull gage only shows the highest weight, which is at the beginning.

I invented and made a special trigger pull gage that shows the trigger pull weight all the way through the trigger cycle. On a stock action that starts at 12 lb., it goes down to 9 lb. before the hammer falls. A normal trigger pull gage only shows the 12 lb. part, if it even goes up that high.

Which primer is being used is a large part of how low the trigger can go, because it takes a different minimum strike force to be reliable on different primers. The heavier the mainspring setting, the harder the trigger is to pull. The heavier the mainspring setting, the heavier the rebound spring has to be to rebound the hammer and return the trigger forward. Federal primers seated .008 to .010 below flush with the case head will allow for the lightest hammer fall force (24 to 28 oz.). Federal primers seated normally will allow for the next lightest hammer fall (32 to 36 oz.). Winchester primers require more force (44 to 48 0z.), and CCI requires the most (68 to 72 oz.). I haven't tested any of the foreign primers. They will probably fall somewhere between Federal and CCI. You can check the hammer fall force by hooking the trigger pull gage under the hammer, hold the trigger all the way back, and see what the pull weight is as the gage/hammer just lifts off the frame. If you're having no misfires with any ammo, you are nowhere near a spooky light DA trigger.

There are those who say you should never open the sideplate, never back off the strain screw, never let anyone but the "mothership" work on your gun, etc., etc.. But you will never get different results by doing the same thing over and over. So you have to do something different to get different results. Although I shoot highly modified guns in matches, I do not advocate using anything but a factory stock gun for duty or carry. The modified guns are for the shooting range only! That said, let's move on.

Once you have the ammo situation sorted, you can work on making the action as light as possible for that ammo. For this, I use a headless socket head cap screw (#8-32 x1/2 for square butt and #8-32 x 3/8 for round butt), and use #222 Loctite to keep them in place. The #222 is low strength so you can move it with the allen wrench after it sets up, but it will stay where you put it. Without the Loctite, the screw will gradually work it's way looser and looser as the mainspring cycles. For convenience, I make a small access hole in the grip to adjust as needed on the range without taking the grips off every time.

You will need to measure the firing pin length with a mike or digital caliper. The shortest you want it to be is .495. Many factory ones are shorter than that. You may need to get an extended firing pin. I like the Power Custom ones. Once you're to this point, get an assortment of rebound springs, 11, 12, 13, 14 lb.

Go to the range, and shoot your chosen ammo, starting with the strain screw backed off to a little less than what you think it should take, based on hammer fall measurements. If you get misfires, go up 1/8 turn (clockwise when looking at the screw from the front of the grip) and try again. If no misfires, go down 1/8 turn and try again. Do this until you find where you're getting no misfires, just above the point of occasional misfire. If later, you have one misfire in 100, dial it up 1/8 turn, etc. Now the mainspring is at the optimal setting for that particular ammo. If you change ammo (different primers), you may need to repeat that process.
You should record the ending hammer fall weight for future reference.

Next is to try the different rebound springs until you find the lightest one that rebounds the trigger the way you want it to. Some like a snappy rebound, some like a lighter rebound for the lightest trigger pull.

For the absolute best trigger pull out there, I invented a new patent pending, drop in hammer kit that goes down to single action pull weight before the hammer falls. My guns are running around 6 to 6.5 lb to start with, then go down to 2.5 to 3 lb. at the end. Every gun is slightly different than every other gun, so there is no exact number. You can see the different guns on the trigger pull gage at Welcome to RevUp Action™! - RevUp Actionâ„¢.

I realized, that after all this, I didn't actually answer BillBro's question. The answer is very smooth, with all the parts working in perfect harmony, and very light, both together. Smooth and light are 2 different things, though most people think light is smooth, and can't tell the difference. The stoning and fitting makes the smooth part, the springs and mechanics makes the light part.

Unless someone is an experienced DA revo shooter, they won't be impressed by a really good DA action, because they have no frame of reference. If you have a stock action gun and can do a side by side comparison, then the light comes on.

 

[Sevens]

Hahaha, I would embarrass myself if I attempted to add anything to the post up by Protocall Design, but there are parts of it I would love to bold, italicize and yell "EXACTLY!!"

I have toyed with two of my PPC revolvers by shimming the strain screw in an effort to make them capable of firing the CCI-500 a full 100% of the time. My shimming worked, however it for damn sure certain took away the absolutely stunning double action pull weight and feel.

So I removed my shim, put them back as the custom builder had set them up and I went out and bought a slew of Federal 100 primers and I only feed them that ammo.

That's not an issue for me, but it's a deal breaker for anyone who doesn't handload. And I truly haven't got even half a clue what primer is used in any factory ammo. I have no logical reason to suspect that the fantastic Federal-100 small pistol primer that works so well for custom tuned double action revolvers is loaded in any factory ammo on the market, including Federal ammo.

Retail Federal ammo is made in the same plant and on the same machines by the same folks that pump out CCI ammo and Blazer ammo and American Eagle ammo and I suspect they are using one primer for all of those products, and I suspects it's the OEM version of the CCI-500 primer.

The bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that old custom PPC guns on the used market are phenomenal buys... but if you don't load your own ammo, you'll never truly get to actually enjoy one, and that kinda sucks for anyone that doesn't handload. (Honestly, it's a good reason to set up to do exactly that.)

 

[BillBro]

Fortunately for me I do reload. I happen to use alot of fed spp, not because theyre soft but I usually find them the cheapest. They also happent to work.

Thanks for the enlightening posts of experience above from both of you gentlemen. Always good to learn something new about firearms..