Zero tolerence probably is unconstitutional. Every case should be judged on it's own merits.
Zero tolerence = Zero intelligence
Zero tolerence = Zero intelligence
I'm very unhappy.
- Thread starter Old 44 Guy
- Start date
Pasifikawv
Member
Zero tolerance makes schools LESS safe.
Once students see their peers being severely disciplined for telling a distasteful joke or for having hand tools in their pick-up, they are reluctant to tell anything to authorities. Students become afraid to talk to their principal or teachers fearing that their peers will be unjustly punished over a bunch-o-nuttin.
Now, if a student overhears a conversation regarding violence or explosives, he/she will recall how Billy was expelled for 6 months for telling a bad joke and won't report what they overheared knowing that the school authorities' zero tolerance will result in expuilsion - even if what they heard was just another joke...
Zero tolerance is not effective. In fact, it can make schools less safe. Local school boards should think carefully about ending the policy of zero tolerance...
Once students see their peers being severely disciplined for telling a distasteful joke or for having hand tools in their pick-up, they are reluctant to tell anything to authorities. Students become afraid to talk to their principal or teachers fearing that their peers will be unjustly punished over a bunch-o-nuttin.
Now, if a student overhears a conversation regarding violence or explosives, he/she will recall how Billy was expelled for 6 months for telling a bad joke and won't report what they overheared knowing that the school authorities' zero tolerance will result in expuilsion - even if what they heard was just another joke...
Zero tolerance is not effective. In fact, it can make schools less safe. Local school boards should think carefully about ending the policy of zero tolerance...
Understand and sympathize. My kids could easily fall victim to a similar fate if I would happen to screw up. It will be no small relief to me when my kids are free of the academic zero-tolerance/zero-brains environment.
The Last Standing Knight
Member
I can understand the frustration here, but IMHO...
...as well as personal experience, as a student on school grounds or or functions controlled by a school, you have no rights to anything...merely "priveleges." These can be taken or given at a whim of any administrator.
When I was in school, if a kid was marched to the principal's office for anything (even for no reason at all...both seen and experienced it myself), there was no discussion, no debate, YOU WERE GUILTY and the fact you were in the office proved you did something. The fact you were even in there was only so the principal could punish you. The only times this had any change to it was the individual administrators themselves.
Fact is, whether a school or a college, as long as you are a student on their grounds, they have absolute control and in someways, this is a double edged sword.
When I attended my oldest's graduation, school authoritites were nasty, rude, and generally unpleasant to EVERYONE, even those who were cooperating. Even those graduating with honors and making speeches have to watch what they say or face retailiation (such as withholding diplomas).
Before my son graduated, I explained to him that as long as you are in school, you are under the school's thumb. Keep your mouth shut, do what they tell you, wait until you get that diploma in you hand, and get off campus and don't look back.
From the textbooks I've seen, schools are more about indoctorination than education these days. I've worked with people who were in college and could tell you everything about politics and yet couldn't read "See Spot run"
...as well as personal experience, as a student on school grounds or or functions controlled by a school, you have no rights to anything...merely "priveleges." These can be taken or given at a whim of any administrator.
When I was in school, if a kid was marched to the principal's office for anything (even for no reason at all...both seen and experienced it myself), there was no discussion, no debate, YOU WERE GUILTY and the fact you were in the office proved you did something. The fact you were even in there was only so the principal could punish you. The only times this had any change to it was the individual administrators themselves.
Fact is, whether a school or a college, as long as you are a student on their grounds, they have absolute control and in someways, this is a double edged sword.
When I attended my oldest's graduation, school authoritites were nasty, rude, and generally unpleasant to EVERYONE, even those who were cooperating. Even those graduating with honors and making speeches have to watch what they say or face retailiation (such as withholding diplomas).
Before my son graduated, I explained to him that as long as you are in school, you are under the school's thumb. Keep your mouth shut, do what they tell you, wait until you get that diploma in you hand, and get off campus and don't look back.
From the textbooks I've seen, schools are more about indoctorination than education these days. I've worked with people who were in college and could tell you everything about politics and yet couldn't read "See Spot run"
ingmansinc
US Veteran
and teacher who are pedophiles.
Students tend to think only "for the moment" at any given time. If one is about to graduate one would presume they know the rules. If that is the case then punishment is due. If they don't know the rules after some years at the school that's even worse and punishment still in order.
That said, I am interested in learning more re: why the saw was seized. That seems fairly innocuous unless, of course, there was some vandalism associated with such an implement.
Be safe.
That said, I am interested in learning more re: why the saw was seized. That seems fairly innocuous unless, of course, there was some vandalism associated with such an implement.
Be safe.
A saw is much more dangerous than a penknife.
My son was a witness to an incedent where "horse-play" in the wood shop resulted in a small cut from a knife. Note the location -- edged tools everywhere. This was just about the time of the safe school laws hitting the books. The 8th grade boy was out for a calendar year. This amounted to no credit for that semester plus the full next year. This did not turn out well for the boy, he had trouble later with the real law. Smart kid, but it is difficult to overcome such a penalty.
My grandkids now have to have "clear" backpacks at school so the kindergarten kids can be easily checked for bombs and guns.
Common sense is not an option with these rules.
My son was a witness to an incedent where "horse-play" in the wood shop resulted in a small cut from a knife. Note the location -- edged tools everywhere. This was just about the time of the safe school laws hitting the books. The 8th grade boy was out for a calendar year. This amounted to no credit for that semester plus the full next year. This did not turn out well for the boy, he had trouble later with the real law. Smart kid, but it is difficult to overcome such a penalty.
My grandkids now have to have "clear" backpacks at school so the kindergarten kids can be easily checked for bombs and guns.
Common sense is not an option with these rules.
Yah, it's not rocket surgery. Certain rules are so well known that it's hard to have much (or any) sympathy for the violator.
In this case, although the details are kind of sketchy, the grandson apparently drove a vehicle on campus without a required sticker--apparently making it highly probable that the vehicle would be scrutinized by security. The grandson also drove a vehicle on campus with ammunition easily visible from outside--apparently making it highly probable that those contents would be flagged for some type of enforcement action.
I'd say the grandson's dad may have a part in causing the incident too. If the dad allows the grandson to borrow the vehicle to go to school, the dad ought to at least think about what is inside the truck (gun, ammo, etc.) that might be a problem at the school. Maybe he did, hard to tell from OP.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Here is another perspective. I am not real sure I agree with it myself, but consider it. I did 35 years as a security guard for lockheed aircraft. Every once in awhile someone higher up would come up with what I considered a stupid or impractable rule we were to enforce. I always was one of those type that kind of thought for myself and used reason. I was lucky and it worked for me as I retired with #1 badge and probley hold/held the old time record for seniority and longevity on the department, and seldom, almost never was repermanded. Yet some type guards we had that were nit pickers and had no common sense to use their own judgement were in continual trouble.
Another way of changing a stupid order is to enforce it! By that I mean that a order would come out, say to completely search every vehicle comeing in or out. Now when you have maybe 5,000 people driveing through several gates comeing or leaveing work all in a half a hour if you enforced the order it might take a employee a half hour to get through the gate when he already showed up with time to spare to get to work! Conversly, just try makeing them wait a half hour to get out of the gate after they are off the clock! It wouldnt take long before the plant manager or department heads would tear their hair out and recend the order to something more resonable.
That guard that found the ammo did his job. A pox on the idiot administrater officals that didnt have common sense to understand the situation when heard.
Everyone has someone to answer to. Maybe its the school board or whatever. I would find out who thinks they had the power to expell this kid. I would work at finding out who hired him and has the power to fire or repermand him, and lay the facts on all with anyone that can do something about it. Understand this. Whoever expelled the boy did it because he is PC. The same type person is also scared of PC when its used on him!
Another way of changing a stupid order is to enforce it! By that I mean that a order would come out, say to completely search every vehicle comeing in or out. Now when you have maybe 5,000 people driveing through several gates comeing or leaveing work all in a half a hour if you enforced the order it might take a employee a half hour to get through the gate when he already showed up with time to spare to get to work! Conversly, just try makeing them wait a half hour to get out of the gate after they are off the clock! It wouldnt take long before the plant manager or department heads would tear their hair out and recend the order to something more resonable.
That guard that found the ammo did his job. A pox on the idiot administrater officals that didnt have common sense to understand the situation when heard.
Everyone has someone to answer to. Maybe its the school board or whatever. I would find out who thinks they had the power to expell this kid. I would work at finding out who hired him and has the power to fire or repermand him, and lay the facts on all with anyone that can do something about it. Understand this. Whoever expelled the boy did it because he is PC. The same type person is also scared of PC when its used on him!
Frank237
Absent Comrade
Why didn't the boy simply take the BUS to school?
sigp220.45
US Veteran
The whole country isn't crazy. A couple of years ago, in small town Idaho, by son and his friends were transferring some cased shotguns and shells from one kid's pickup to another after school in the school parking lot in anticipation of going sage grouse hunting that afternoon. The school principal drove by, rolled down his window, and said "Boys - not in the PARKING LOT", then drove on. No SWAT team, no suspension - but the lesson was learned.
venomballistics
Member
the danger of zero tolerance policies is that it makes it SO easy to prank or frame someone.
just plant an empty ammo box and report it for hours of cheap entertainment....
just plant an empty ammo box and report it for hours of cheap entertainment....
depending on your location, the bus can be closer to sitting in the state pen than most here would like to contemplate.
yeah ... not only does an otherwise good student need to fear the age old bully's, thugs and not so age old gangs .... they need to fear the schools administration too.
USAF385
US Veteran
I think I was in 8th grade when the Columbine shootings took place. I remember at the time it appeared as though the school was going to crack down on safety, but I honestly can't recall any real changes. The biggest thing was you weren't allowed to carry your backpack to your classes.. it had to stay in your locker.
I believe we had a threat called in to the school not long after Columbine. School was canceled at least one day. When we came back, all the doors to the school were locked and we had to come in through one set of doors. There were cops there with metal detectors. That only lasted one or two days. After that... nothing for the remainder of my years at school.
In high school, we had a no weapons policy. A lot of guys carried a pocket knife though, and there was never an issue. It was a quiet farming community and there was never any real problems with violence.
The college I now go to had a no weapons policy as well. The student population is 75% male.. and probably 75% of the males carry a pocket knife.. again no issue.
I believe we had a threat called in to the school not long after Columbine. School was canceled at least one day. When we came back, all the doors to the school were locked and we had to come in through one set of doors. There were cops there with metal detectors. That only lasted one or two days. After that... nothing for the remainder of my years at school.
In high school, we had a no weapons policy. A lot of guys carried a pocket knife though, and there was never an issue. It was a quiet farming community and there was never any real problems with violence.
The college I now go to had a no weapons policy as well. The student population is 75% male.. and probably 75% of the males carry a pocket knife.. again no issue.
james56
US Veteran
I think in this case the Security Guard or Campus PO which ever is the case did his job and the School Administration didn't!!! Case by case discretion is needed. Our Country is at War, from within and outside. Common sense is needed!! Theres going to be alot of incidence's like this and "Real Threats", and how there handled is going to shape how our Great Country stays Great or becomes a Country Like those in Europe where the Innocent have no way to protect themselves. Comon Sense!!
Last edited:
OP
I've read your posts & both pro & con make sense. Grandson used my sons truck because his car wouldn't start. He has a job after school so a bus ride isn't the answer. My son is a trap shooter so that explains the 12 Ga. shells. Grandson is going to attend Junior College after grauating. Wants to become a Youth Pastor in their church. Thanks for letting me vent my anger here. I feel better now. Dick
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc
There was a similar incident locally, wherein a young lady who was up and coming in some sort of shotgun sport inadvertently left a box or two of low-base, small shot shells in her truck in the HS campus lot, which were diligently discovered by a "security officer", resulting in her academically calamitous suspension, another example of brain-dead policy-makers enforcing "zero-tolerance" pogroms against innocent and defenseless students, who, evidently, have surrendered their constitutional rights by complying with compulsory education laws while exercising civil rights afforded to most of the population. What's wrong with this picture?
Here's a stupid question. Are shotgun shells explosive? I've never tried to light one on fire before. Can't imagine they would do anything, but I've been wrong before.
Huh? Please advise results of any shotgun shell incineration experiments, which we're all eagerly awaiting...
Originally Posted by jkc
There was a similar incident locally, wherein a young lady who was up and coming in some sort of shotgun sport inadvertently left a box or two of low-base, small shot shells in her truck in the HS campus lot, which were diligently discovered by a "security officer", resulting in her academically calamitous suspension, another example of brain-dead policy-makers enforcing "zero-tolerance" pogroms against innocent and defenseless students, who, evidently, have surrendered their constitutional rights by complying with compulsory education laws while exercising civil rights afforded to most of the population. What's wrong with this picture?
Here's a stupid question. Are shotgun shells explosive? I've never tried to light one on fire before. Can't imagine they would do anything, but I've been wrong before.
Huh? Please advise results of any shotgun shell incineration experiments, which we're all eagerly awaiting...
Bullseye Smith
Member
I can sum it up with two letters "BS". When the boys where in school after one of the shooting in Ohio, the kids done a walk out because they couldn't wear thier jackets in class (winter and old school, poor heat). I drove out to pick them up and the city kitty said they are right about the jacket, and I laught at him and told him I could walk down the hall nude and have a gun that they couldn't see. He laught and told me I was nuts, then I told him all you have to do is take a book and cut the center out and put your gun in it and close it. Never know it was there. He had a dumb look on his face and the kids laughted at him 
.
.
MrJT
US Veteran
Zero tolerance is not the best idea. However, as far as the security is concerned, they got to act on anything "suspicious". Imagine the uproar if something slipped by them.
smith revolver cop
Member
"Zero tolerance" SHOULD mean that a school will not tolerate a violation, and will act upon any infraction, with an APPROPRIATE punishment... I'm not sure how it got so distorted that it now means ANY infraction gets the SAME punishment. That's why kids who bring an aspirin with them for a headache get treated the same as the kid selling heroin. You hit the nail squarely on the head when you said it allows administrators not have to think or use reason- that's because too many of them are AFRAID to think, use reason, or stand up for something!
