IMPORTANT, MUST WATCH VIDEO on new ATF rules on pistol braces

[rbuzz]

IMPORTANT MUST WATCH VIDEO concerning ATFs new rule pertaining to pistol braces!!!

I urge everyone to watch the video listed below. It brings forth an so far undiscovered trap built in the new rulings that could lead to enforcement actions taken against anyone taking advantage of the 120 day period that the ATF gives us to apply for your Form 1 permit for SBRs. Please watch it and make up your own mind, but whether it was intentional or simply a mistake, it appears that there is a flaw in the rule that could lead to felony charges being brought against you under certain circumstances if you apply.

My understanding is this. Under normal circumstances when you normally apply for a Form 1 you basically start off with an applications to build a SBR. You supply your necessary paperwork, your fingerprints, your $200 fee and send it all in to the ATF. In approximately 6 months to a year, or whatever, you are either declined or you get your permit so that you can then build your SBR.

The way this ruling is set up, it's all done in reverse. You start off with telling the ATF that according to their new ruling, you already have in your possession what the ATF now says is an SBR. You are required to send in your personal information, pictures, fingerprints etc. and ask for a permit. What's screwed up is that you are already admitting to having an illegal SBR in your possession. So when you send in your application, if you are denied for some reason or the process takes longer than 88 days, your permit is automatically denied, and that's when the problem starts. You've already admitted that you own an SBR, so in effect you've already confessed to a crime.

A lawyer for GOA spoke to a ATF Deputy at the ATF booth at Shot Show and he confirmed what I am about to say. If your permit is denied or if it goes beyond 88 days, it is automatically declined. Remember, you are still in possession of an illegal SBR. The ATF Deputy confirmed that they would probably taken an enforcement action because you have already turned yourself in when you sent in pictures, your name and address. You've basically already confessed to the ATF that you already own an SBR.

IT'S A TRAP!

In normal circumstances it takes 6 month to a year to get your Form 1 approved. Now throw into the mix several million more applications. It's easy to imagine that it will take far more time than it normally does and will almost certainly push beyond the 88 day limit where your application is automatically declined.

Don't take my word for it. Maybe my understanding of this is wrong. Watch the video below and make up your own mind, but I would urge you to not take any action and send in your application until we learn more.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggOmUXxVWY[/ame]

 

[Racer X]

Sweet Jeebus! Sure sounds like a trap to me. I just picked up a pocket pistol today, and the FFL was processing a guy's application for his braced pistol. Glad I'm not that guy's neighbor, likely to get my door kicked in at 3 am by mistake.

 

[BC38]

I've said this elsewhere, but FWIW, it seems to me that the best course of action for anyone owning a braced AR-15 or AK pistol would be to remove the brace, give it to a trusted friend or relative who does NOT own an AR or AK firearm, and then just sit back and wait to see how this all pans out.
Neither the pistol OR the brace are illegal on their own. You have to be in possession of BOTH to run afoul of the new "rules". So separating them seems like the best course of action to me - at least until this whole mess gets sorted out.
If they are really looking to spring a GOTCHA trap on people, then we should know it about at around 100 days after the 120 day clock starts ticking - once they start enforcement actions.
If I had one I was thinking about registering, I'd be filing the registration paperwork at about 118 days into the 120 day grace period. And I'd also be getting rid of the brace immediately after I took the photo to send to the ATF with the registration too.
That way even if they did try to spring a trap on you, when they show up to seize your "illegal SBR", if you are no longer in possession of the brace then what you have left is a completely legal pistol, not an SBR, and there should be nothing they can do to you.
At that point is is pretty simple: you just say "you know, I started the registration process then changed my mind and chose to destroy the brace instead. I couldn't figure out how to cancel the application that I started. Can you help me with that?"
At that point, what are they gonna do?

 

[Tom K]

....
In normal circumstances it takes 6 month to a year to get your Form 1 approved. Now throw into the mix several million more applications. It's easy to imagine that it will take far more time than it normally does and will almost certainly push beyond the 88 day limit where your application is automatically declined.
....

You say that it normally takes six months to a year for Form 1 approval, yet you then say applications are automatically declined after 88 days. These can't both be true.

At the 4:05 mark of the video, a note comes on at the bottom of the screen that clarifies, "*88 days from Start of background check... NOT Submission." Presumably this makes things slightly better because they obviously can't start a background check before you submit your application.

But still, say you wait 60 days into the 120 day window to submit your application for the SBR tax stamp. How long after that do they begin your background check? Is it started right away as soon as they receive your application, and if they don't process your application within 88 days you are automatically denied?

Or do they put it on the mile-high stack and once they work their way down to it in a few years, then there's an 88 day window for them to do the background check? It seems like that's what the footnote in the video says.

In the meantime you are relying on the promise from Page 13 of the ruling that:

Provided the registration form is properly submitted and documented within the defined time period, the Department will consider individuals to be in compliance with the statutory requirements between the date on which a person’s application is filed and the date a person receives ATF approval or disapproval of the application.

So if you put in your application on day 60 and they don't process it for three years, it shouldn't matter to you legally as long as it's eventually approved.

It doesn't seem like it's any more of a trap because of the 88 day limit unless there is some reason that their background check takes hugely longer than the usual NICS check. It looks to me like the real risk is that if your application is declined for whatever reason, they have a slam-dunk conviction for illegal possession of an unregistered SBR (if they so choose). So if you have any doubts about being able to pass, best not chance it.

 

[Racer X]

your whole application is declined if the background check doesn't come back cleared within those 88 days from when the check is started.

If you are saying "what if they don't start the check for 2.5 years" that is a different issue. And Form 1 NFA application checks sure aren't a basic NICS check, and the ATF does them, not the FBI. And the ATF doesn't have much staff.

 

[wood714]

Not sure where people are getting it's taking the ATF so long to approve form 1's, unless things have changed a lot since last July.

I submitted my form 1 Wednesday, and mailed my prints and cover letter off Thursday. I'm not worried about the ATF springing a "GOTTCHA trap" on me. If the ATF decides braced pistols are NFA items, what's the big deal? People that are lawful have been registering them since Roosevelt passed The National Firearms Act in 1934.

I have 2 AR SBR's already. I can have all the braces I want in my possession without any worries about intent to make a SBR. All I have to do is loosen 2 set screws and take it off my now AR pistol. If something did go most bad, all I'd loose is a PSA lower. I could keep the upper due to having the other SBR's.

I sent one form 4 and 2 form 1's in back around 2011. They took 4 to 5 months.

These are the form 1's I've sent in, in the past 2 years. longest wait was 25 days.

I sent these 2 at the same time.

My last 2 from this past summer.

 

[Racer X]

they are basing future timelines on a huge expected influx of millions of brace owners all at once......

 

[BC38]

they are basing future timelines on a huge expected influx of millions of brace owners all at once......

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here Racer X. Can you please elaborate and expand on what you mean?

 

[gdogs]

The rule clearly states that from the time of application you are considered in compliance until you are either approved or rejected. Obviously if you can't pass the background check then you've got a problem, but a built in trap... now you are just being paranoid.

 

[Mainsail]

I think the thought here is that there are two sub-approvals in the brace/SBR approval process. First is the background check. When that comes back good, then they begin processing your brace/SBR paperwork, and when that's finished they approve you for the stamp and mail it.

If you send them photos of your braced pistol with your paperwork, they'll start the background check. There will be thousands of these approval packages arriving at ATF in the next 120 days, which will be a challenge for the GS-07 personnel to process, so the timeline is going to go off-scale high.

- add time for the initial processing during the 120 window
- add time for the background checks the ATF has to do themselves (not FBI)

Then, if 88 days elapses before the background check gets done and approved, your background check is denied and your brace/SBR approval process stops.

If they want to, they can come to your door with a search warrant based on the evidence you sent them that you own what was once a pistol, but is now a SBR for which you have no stamp.

Now, if their intent all along was slow-roll it intentionally, it is a trap and if you sent them your photos/forms, they own you.

That's my understanding of it - if that's not right I'm open to learn.

 

[rbuzz]

You say that it normally takes six months to a year for Form 1 approval, yet you then say applications are automatically declined after 88 days. These can't both be true.

At the 4:05 mark of the video, a note comes on at the bottom of the screen that clarifies, "*88 days from Start of background check... NOT Submission." Presumably this makes things slightly better because they obviously can't start a background check before you submit your application.

But still, say you wait 60 days into the 120 day window to submit your application for the SBR tax stamp. How long after that do they begin your background check? Is it started right away as soon as they receive your application, and if they don't process your application within 88 days you are automatically denied?

Or do they put it on the mile-high stack and once they work their way down to it in a few years, then there's an 88 day window for them to do the background check? It seems like that's what the footnote in the video says.

In the meantime you are relying on the promise from Page 13 of the ruling that:

Provided the registration form is properly submitted and documented within the defined time period, the Department will consider individuals to be in compliance with the statutory requirements between the date on which a person’s application is filed and the date a person receives ATF approval or disapproval of the application.

So if you put in your application on day 60 and they don't process it for three years, it shouldn't matter to you legally as long as it's eventually approved.

It doesn't seem like it's any more of a trap because of the 88 day limit unless there is some reason that their background check takes hugely longer than the usual NICS check. It looks to me like the real risk is that if your application is declined for whatever reason, they have a slam-dunk conviction for illegal possession of an unregistered SBR (if they so choose). So if you have any doubts about being able to pass, best not chance it.

I agree that more details need to be explicitly outlined but these conclusions so far were arrived at by a GOA lawyer, who knows far more about the legal aspects of this than we do, and based on information he received from an ATF official. At the very least this warrants some careful consideration before blindly accepting the ATFs word on anything.

Also consider the fact that under normal circumstances you are applying for a permit to build a SBR. When you make your application you do not possess the SBR.

With this new ruling your are admitting to already having in your possession an illegal SBR and are proving it by sending in pictures and other incriminating evidence. If your application is denied for any reason you have already supplied proof of your guilt and could face consequences. Big difference.

 

[Beemer-mark]

I've said this elsewhere, but FWIW, it seems to me that the best course of action for anyone owning a braced AR-15 or AK pistol would be to remove the brace, give it to a trusted friend or relative who does NOT own an AR or AK firearm, and then just sit back and wait to see how this all pans out.

I talked to the owner of a good size local gun store and asked him what he planned to do. He has no interest in applying for a lot of permits so he's separating them from the guns and storing them away. I guess if nothing changes in 120 days he'll throw them away.

 

[dbell54]

It's good to see someone spell it out for those thinking they're getting a good deal in a "free SBR." Folks, if you haven't joined GOA, why not? Those guys are really fighting for our rights. Join the Second Amendment Foundation, too, while you're at it.

 

[ladder13]

It's good to see someone spell it out for those thinking they're getting a good deal in a "free SBR." Folks, if you haven't joined GOA, why not? Those guys are really fighting for our rights. Join the Second Amendment Foundation, too, while you're at it.

GOA and SAF do yeomans work.

 

[scoobysnacker]

With this new ruling your are admitting to already having in your possession an illegal SBR and are proving it by sending in pictures and other incriminating evidence. If your application is denied for any reason you have already supplied proof of your guilt and could face consequences. Big difference.

What if-

you file the application, and also swap out to a smooth pistol buffer tube, and remove the brace? At this point, you have a pistol. If you get rejected, surrender the brace if need be, keep the pistol?

Note- we're talking in this case about a 'build', separate upper and lower, and NOT a preconstructed gun.

My very limited understanding is, you could already have done that in the past- own a pistol, file and get to convert it to a SBR. Once approved, you can put on the brace (or stock), etc. More hassle in travelling, less worries about casually shooting at a range with nervous nellies around.

 

[BC38]

What if-

you file the application, and also swap out to a smooth pistol buffer tube, and remove the brace? At this point, you have a pistol. If you get rejected, surrender the brace if need be, keep the pistol?

Note- we're talking in this case about a 'build', separate upper and lower, and NOT a preconstructed gun.

My very limited understanding is, you could already have done that in the past- own a pistol, file and get to convert it to a SBR. Once approved, you can put on the brace (or stock), etc. More hassle in travelling, less worries about casually shooting at a range with nervous nellies around.

Pretty much where I'm coming from on this whole fiasco too.
IF you own one, ditch the brace, and then wait & see what happens.