Imported S&W Revolvers

[UFGator]

I am noticing quite a few S&W revolvers in good to perfect condition, some in boxes as well as Colts being sold by 1EININC, a Florida dealer. The descriptions all note "these guns may have import marks." Pictures reveal most do. And it appears that the revolvers have been blued after the proof marks were applied. I know nothing about the intricacies of imports with the exception of the older miitary rifles. In the UK, import marks were placed on firearms when they left the country or passed through the UK from another country enroute to someplace else.

I can't imagine that all these revolvers were blued after the markings were applied. I'm not finding the US importer marking on the revolvers which is required. I think I saw a reference that these were under the stocks?????

Anyway, I'm very curious. I'm sure someone has already cracked nut.

Happy Independence Day. Enjoy as it might be fleeting.

Moderator, thanks for your patience!

Kind regards

 

[PeteC]

I noticed those. Do they look like this?

These are either on the barrels, and/or the frame close to where the barrel is pinned, or inside the crane near the model number. I blew up one of the the pics so someone can hopefully tell us what they are.

 

[peter-paul]

The eagle superior, over "N" is a German proof. I assume the 76 in a shield is 1976, and this proof is consistent with those found on west German PPKs imported by Interarms back in the day.

 

[UFGator]

Well, they are a ton of revolvers, Colts, etc. coming into the country like these. Of course anything over five regarding an older S&W = ton.

 

[2152hq]

What I think they have is a large personal collection from one person that they are selling off. Perhaps someone that had been in the Foreign Service or Military and stationed in W/Germany-Germany.
An elderly retiree or now passed on and the guns are up for sale

The handguns purchased there and they would have been proofed by German law before commercial sale in that country.
(It may not have needed to be proofed and marked if it was sold to US Service personal thru one of the on-base outlets,,but I'm not sure about that.)

If that person returned to the USA before sometime in 1986 with the guns,,there would have been no US requirement for them to be 'Importer Stamped'.
That became law in that year. The actual marking may have not began till 1987.

Guns have also come back into the USA thru Diplomatic channels after the '86 law and never gotten Import marked. Another possibility here.
Special people are given Special rules.

As far as the blued over markings, either they appear to be blued over in the pics,,I looked at some of them on their website and couldn't really tell. (I could only find some Colts).
Or perhaps the orig owner had the blued metal portions of the guns redone once back in the USA w/o any polishing. Called dunk bluing. Easy to do. Just takes time and a credit card.

Just to return them to 100% blue (at that time) and not disturb the orig factory polish. It touches up any worn spots & edges at the same time.
Most are listed as in perfect or near that condition.

Just my guesses,,and that's all it is.

 

[wheelgun28]

I am wondering if the seller is German or has heavy connections in Germany?

The name 1 Ein, ein is German for 1 so the name is one one?

Has many other German firearms seems to specialize in them.

Drilings, veirlings, lots of Walther items.

Just a guess.

As for the blue, sometimes the stamping seems to push the blue in, and from a distance seems all blue?

 

[PeteC]

This would have been one big collection. The company has over 1000 items listed, including a large number of target and sport guns. Including over 400 Colt and S&W, most listed at prices over $2000. Conservatively, they just put collectible firearms worth over $2 Million on GB within a short time, and most of the ratings are A+.

There are 78 S&W Model 17 revolvers. All in pretty nice condition, from one seller, with German proof marks... ??

 

[Walter Rego]

I have a Model 31-1 that I bought in new in the box condition. The box has no additional markings or stickers other than the factory end label. The gun bears Belgian proofmarks on the frame, barrel and cylinder and the name of a European importer/distributor WISCHO on the barrel flat. I have often wondered how it made it back to the states. Maybe purchased by an American serviceman stationed at one of the bases in Europe through their PX or Rod & Gun club ? Here are a couple of photos. The blueing appears to be pushed into the stampings.

 

[Absalom]

I noticed those. Do they look like this?
..... I blew up one of the the pics so someone can hopefully tell us what they are.

That‘s Munich proofhouse, standard nitro proofs from 1976.

What I think they have is a large personal collection from one person that they are selling off.
......
If that person returned to the USA before sometime in 1986 with the guns,,there would have been no US requirement for them to be 'Importer Stamped'.
....

Only commercial imports need any stampings. Privately imported guns do not have any such requirements. So if this is indeed a private collection, the year would not matter.

 

[Rodan]

I have noted this seller and they have listed some very nice guns, but I've passed on bidding because of the foreign proofs.

I'd be interested in hearing anything about their sources, and the mechanism by which the guns were re-patriated.

I do agree they must have more than a single collection as a source.

 

[bgrafsr]

I have a Pre Model 15 that has German stamps on it. Got it off of Gunbroker several years ago. It shipped in October 1951.

 

[PeteC]

@peter-paul, @Absalom, Thanks! That's great information to have!

I just bought a gun with similar stamps. Now I know it was exported to Germany, passed through Munich, and was reimported into the US. In my case not by this same importer, but by a FFL dealer in NY called Foxtrot. Since I don't consider mine a collectible, the foreign stamps and the re-import stamp are just part of its history to me, and not a flaw.

Here is what I found on another site about the WISCHO stamp:

"WISCHO" is ... an identifying mark stamped lightly on the weapon... The actual entity is Wilsker & Co. located in the city of Erlangen in West Germany. They are ... a distributor...

 

[UFGator]

I guess there is no reason to think that Smith & Wessons wouldn't have been distributed extensively in Europe. There is more firearms ownership there than one would think. However, recent changes in laws (assumption) could have resulted in these guns becoming available. The only country I'm intimately familiar with is Luxembourg. You can certainly own firearms there. It seems like anyone who is remotely interested owns an M1 Garand, a BAR, a Thompson SMG, an M! carbine, a 1911 and a German Sturmgewehr 45. I've been there and seen them in their homes as well as shot them. It is utterly amazing. The prices are a quarter to less than what one would pay here.

 

[2152hq]

.......

Only commercial imports need any stampings. Privately imported guns do not have any such requirements. So if this is indeed a private collection, the year would not matter.

'Privately Imported' ?

AFAIK any firearm that is imported has to go thru an FFL.
The FFL can be a Licensed Importer of Firearms & Ammunition or can make out a Form (6A)? and do whats called an occassional importation of same.
There are limitations placed on what can and cannot be imported of course and by who.


A Non-Licensee (Non-FFL) can also make that 'ocassional importation' but not of a Firearm.,,only sporting ammunition.
(If it's a personal firearm that a non-licensee takes out of the country(USA) like on a hunting trip,,and then returns with the same firearm, that is not considered an Importation and no markings or Importation forms are required.)

Any firearm imports desired by a non-licensee would have to go thru an FFL with the usual paperwork (Form6 or 6A).

With that, an Importers Mark (That FFL's name and the firearms info, cal, ect) would be placed on the firearm by that importing FFL after leaving Customs. There is a specified time period which is 15 days in which to apply the marking and before the firearm can be further transfered.

There's even a spec for the markings which is at least .003" depth and no smaller than 1/16" in height.
This went into effect Jan 2002 after some importers were using the micro sized discrete markings, which collectors favored but L/E didn't see the humor in


This would all be post 1986 Law .
Prior to that there were no Import Marking demands.
From GCA68 to 1986,,Imports were allowed, but only Sporting Firearms. Handguns had to make the ATF Point System. Military Surplus arms of any type were non-importable.
Antique (pre1899) were exempt from all this.

Very few exceptions to the importation rules over all.

There's a couple in there for the Special People like
"Officials of foreign governments and distinguished foreign visitors who have been so designated by the Department of State"
(No NFA stuff though)

Here's some mind numbing reading matr'l, The BATF Importers Guide for Firearms and Ammunition

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...earms.&text=It shall be unlawful for,922(a)(1).

 

[PeteC]

Interesting. I had read some of this but not all the detail and the dates.

...
This would all be post 1986 Law.
Prior to that there were no Import Marking demands.
From GCA68 to 1986, Imports were allowed, but only Sporting Firearms. Handguns had to make the ATF Point System. Military Surplus arms of any type were non-importable.
Antique (pre1899) were exempt from all this.

The listings I looked at all showed the stamps from Europe, but none of them showed the engraved or laser etched name of an importing FFL. Seem unlikely all of these guns were re-imported into the US before 1986. I wonder if this is a dealer from Europe, and this is simply stock they accumulated over time that can be sold for much more money in the US.

 

[2152hq]

Good thought,,Perhaps they are still sitting in Germany or somewhere in Europe.
Could be a dealer from Europe that is betting they can get more $$ selling the USA mfg guns back in the US now.
But if they bring them back into the US to sell them (import into the USA), they have to be Importer Marked.
Handguns still will have to meet the BAFT Importation Point System too..

Another thought is these could be early post '86 imports, prior to 2002.
2002 was when the BATF placed size, depth and placement specs on the Import Markings.
Prior to 2002, there were no size requirements nor demands that they not be covered by 'stock or grips'. No requirement that the marking be placed only the 'Frame, slide or barrel'.
Many were micro-tiny and placed under the wood line and under pistol grips back then.
These might be marked under the grips or so small that they can go un-noticed.
I had a bunch of the Austrian Police H/P's that were imported in the late 80's. The importers mark was so small on the bottom of the butt of the pistol it look like a tiny handling dent in the metal.

We'll probably never know, but it's been fun speculating.
Maybe someone will buy one! They seem a bit pricey though.

 

[UFGator]

Among M1 collectors, the dreaded "import stamp" caused many to shy away from otherwise very rare, collective examples. The proof marks that I see on these revolvers wouldn't stop me from buying one I wanted. They are professionally applied. What is not apparent in the pics is the importers identification. I'm guessing they are under the stocks. I haven't spotted one in any of the pics.

I have several friends who collect high-end military rifles, primarily foreign sniper rifles. They regularly buy and import these rifles from EU. Seems to be no problem. In fact, several M1D sniper rifles were just brought into the country and one sold on a popular auction site. These rifles were Garands that were actually made by the Italians. Quite rare.

The only question about all these beautiful revolvers is where is that import marking. It could be a deal-breaker.

 

[Absalom]

Aha. The key for my experience is in the handbook you linked:

A foreign national. An alien entering the U.S. to establish residency may obtain an approved ATF F 6 (Part I) import permit, prior to the date U.S. residency is established (90 days after his or her date of arrival in the U.S.) to import sporting firearms, sporting ammunition, and certain implements of war (e.g., firearm component parts). The items approved for importation must accompany the alien or be contained in his or her shipment of personal effects. 18 U.S.C. 922 (d)(3).No)(3).

That’s what I did. I had 6 guns with me, and the approval document from BATF. Customs just waved me through. No FFL involved.

It does not sound like there is a numerical limit.

PS: And there are comparable provisions for US citizens living abroad and military personnel, too.

 

[timspawn]

It seems maybe a phone call to the seller might clear things up.

 

[UFGator]

Hi Tim. When I originally posted, this guy had SO many revolvers for sale, I figured someone would have been all over it. )) Good advice. I'll send them a note.

Thanks much.